Friday, September 7, 2007

Khamûl — what’s in a name?

I’ve wanted to post some thoughts on Khamûl for some time now. I think I’ve got a few original ideas on this obscure character, one of the Nine Nazgûl, and the only one with an actual name. And after assembling them recently, it turns out that this post will form yet another another coda to the wraith / writhen discussion – read parts 1, 2, 3.

First, to refresh our memories, what do we know about him? Not a lot, actually. He only emerges as a distinct character from some of Tolkien’s background writing for The Lord of the Rings, in a collection of narratives labeled “The Hunt for the Ring.” Christopher Tolkien published the bulk of this writing in Unfinished Tales, but several additional passages, including some that relate to Khamûl, have been published more recently in Hammond and Scull’s The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion. Khamûl has also been called the Shadow of the East and the Black Easterling. The Easterlings, of course, are those hostile Men, the Variags of Khand or a related people, who allied themselves with Sauron.

What else can we say about him? Very little. His name, movements, and individual character traits are only discussed in that one piece of writing. And nowhere, to my knowledge (and that of others I’ve consulted, such as Carl Hostetter), does Tolkien discuss any possible etymology of his name. He seems to be a case of spontaneous invention on Tolkien’s part. That being said, we do know that Khamûl was second only to the Witch-king of Angmar in the pecking order of the Ringwraiths. He dwelt for a while at Dol Guldur as Sauron’s lieutenant after he, Sauron, had returned to Mordor. It was also Khamûl who spoke so menacingly to the Gaffer on the night the Hobbits finally left Hobbiton. And perhaps most interesting: “Of Khamûl it is said [...] that he was the most ready of all the Nazgûl after the Black Captain himself, to perceive the presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight.” Interesting stuff, but small beer on which to base any theories.

But nevertheless, I’ve been making an effort to assemble some cogent thoughts and theories on the etymology of the name, because — well, I can’t just let such things lie. :) So, read along if the subject interests you and feel free to let me know what you think. I’ve broken my thoughts down into three areas: philological, historical, and geographical — with a final appendix in which I suggest a few “wilder” ideas. And nearly everything here favors “eastward explanations”, as Khamûl was, after all, the Shadow of the East. Also, because of the length of the post, I’ve omitted sources and citations; if you’re interested, just ask. I may try to formalize this into a conference paper. Would anyone be interested? :)

1) Philological Evidence

Here’s where I bring things back to wraith / writhen. There may be a defensible etymology for Khamûl as “the bent, crooked one”, richly echoing the etymology of wraith (as elaborated in the previous posts). It turns out there’s another Indo-European root of interest; two roots, actually: kemb–, kamp– “to bend”. These have made their way even into Modern English, e.g., akimbo. The root is attested in Latin camur, cămŭrus “crooked, crumpled”, from a past participial form of Greek κάμπτω “I bend”. Looking over Latin’s shoulder, there’s an even earlier Sansrkit cognate: kubja “crooked”, which has left its mark among the other Indo-Aryan languages, e.g., Panjabi kham “crooked”.

But even more than these, the root has left a considerable number of Goidelic cognates. These include such “bent and crooked” words as: Welsh cam “crooked, wrong, injury”; camu “to bend”; Scottish Gaelic cam “crooked”, also cam-bheul “wry mouth” (which sounds very close to Khamûl); Manx cam “bent, deformed, deceitful, crooked”; Old Irish camm “crooked”; Cornish cam “crooked”; and from the coast of Brittany, we have Breton kam “crooked” and Armoric kamm “crooked”.

I mention these in spite of Tolkien’s professed dislikes — “I have no liking at all for Gaelic from Old Irish downwards, as a language, but it is of course of great historical and philological interest, and I have at various times studied it.” It is perhaps very telling that the example he was discussing was nazg, with its Gaelic meaning of “ring”, cognate to his own Black Speech of Mordor. Furthermore, Tolkien proved himself well aware of the Celtic cam under his entry for cammede in his 1922 Middle English Vocabulary.

At points of “Goidelic contact”, obviously primarily in the west, the word also made its way into English dialectal usage, as in Lowland Scotch camsteerie “crooked, confused, unmanageable”. And in Lancashire, we have cam as a noun, “contradiction, crooked argument”; as an adverb, “awry”; and as a verb, “to cross or contradict; to oppose vexatiously; to quarrel” – all from the Welsh camu. We also get Southern Lancashire cammed and Northern and Eastern Lancashire caimt “crooked, bad-tempered, ill-natured” from the same source. I especially like this find, despite Tolkien’s normal preferences for the West Midland dialects, because it resonates with the fact that Tolkien served in the Lancashire Fusiliers during World War I, and was stationed in Yorkshire after his return from France. Which provides a nice segue to the historical discussion.

2) Historical Evidence

First, I have to say that there’s probably nothing to this, but I couldn’t help myself. Could Khamûl be an echo of Kamel, as in Mustafa Kamel Atatürk*, the famous Ottoman general who fought in World War I? Tolkien, of course, fought in the northwest of the European theatre and not in Anatolia, but the rumor of Kemal could hardly have gone unnoticed. Later, Kemal would found the nation of Turkey and become its first president. He was also a noted language reformer, responsible for — among other things — moving Turkish from the Arabic to the Latin alphabet. This had a very beneficial effect on literacy, but Tolkien might have sighed over the loss of linguistic heritage in the name of “progress”.

This is naturally only the most distant possibility, of course, but it’s a tempting idea. Could the name of a larger-than-life war general from the east have stuck in Tolkien’s mind for all those years, then popped out unexpectedly and without explanation? On the other hand, is the stigma of being labeled “the inspiration for Khamûl” really something I can pin on Kamel? Probably not! ;)

3) Geographical Evidence

Could Khamûl refer to a place somewhere in the east? There is a well known candidate in the Chinese city of Kumul (also recorded as Camul as far back as 1615). This is an ancient city in the midst of the larger expanse of the Gobi desert, part of an oasis — the “fertile and agreeable province of Khamil” that Marco Polo visited on his journeys to the vast eastern lands of the Mongols in the 13th century. On that eastern expedition he met the Khans (and here, we find a tantalizing echo of Khand — see below for more on that). The city has also be spelled Khamul, among other variants. Again, it’s tempting.

And now, to Khand, Khamûl’s apparent homeland. Tolkien called “Khand”, like mûmak, an example “[o]f the speech of Men of the East and allies of Sauron.” Such words and names were seldom explained by Tolkien. But considering its geographical location in Middle-earth, it is probably more than mere coincidence that in a number of southwestern Asian languages the word khand, or a form similar to it, refers to a country, a region of the world, etc. Here are a few examples: Panjabi khand “side, quarter, region, one of the nine sections of the world (as reckoned by the Hindus)”; Hindustani khand “region, part (of the world), partition, division (of a country)”; Tamil kantam “piece, part, fragment, portion”. There is also the similar word with Persian, Turkic, and other western Asian cognates, as exemplified by Hindustani khan “lord, prince, ruler, etc.”, which developed metonymically from the meaning “a division of a house, etc.” These words all derive from Sanskrit khanda “to break (as into parts)”, as in breaking up the world into regions or a house into rooms. This original sense of “broken” nicely resonates, once again, with the related “bend, bent” connotation of wraith.

But is there any evidence Tolkien knew more than a tithe about the Indo-Aryan languages? Not much, and certainly less than his awareness of the Celtic cam, though he does mention Sanskrit once or twice. A Sanskrit word such as khanda, however, with its metaphorical, almost mythopoeic, suggestiveness, might have caught his eye. Ditto for the Indo-European roots kemb–, kamp–. There is always a danger in speculating on what Tolkien did or did not know, but where it comes to languages and Indo-European roots, I am certainly inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

4) A few additional philological “temptations”

Now for a few wilder — and possibly more “fun” — ideas! Hey, as long as I’m going out on a limb about which words or languages Tolkien might have drawn on subconsciously, why not? :)

Something that caught my eye and might reinforce the Mustafa Kamel theory is Turkish kem “evil” + kemal “perfection” = “perfection of evil”! And since we’re talking about Kamel, how about camel? These animals are from the East, aren’t they? Perhaps Khamûl originally came riding west on a sun-dappled dromedary. Spelled chamayle by Chaucer, the word comes to us from Old French chamel, camel - Latin camelus - Greek κάμηλος - Hebrew גמל [gamal] - Arabic جَمَل [jamal]. Just in case you wanted to know!

Here’s another fun one from Hindustani (that is, Hindi / Urdu): kāmnī “fairy” — probably pure coincidence, but it’s certainly tempting to imagine that the fear of the Black Easterling entered the collective mythology of the East in such a way. :)

* Atatürk, of course, means “Father of the Turks” — but I keep thinking it’s got to be the Turkish translation of the English interjection, “Attaboy!” No disrespect intended, hahae. And just because I can’t keep myself from it, I’ll point out that the Turkish ata “father, old man” is mighty close to Tolkien’s Adûnaic attû, attô “father”, from Quenya atar.

Well, I’ve really said a mouthful! This might be my longest post yet. Any thoughts?

41 comments:

  1. Certainly Tolkien came up with a name that sounded "Eastern," at any rate.

    http://www.ebookmall.com/ebook/151509-ebook.htm

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  2. Hey Dale. A Grammar of Kham, eh? That’s certainly an interesting find, even if it’s not something Tolkien could have known about. Too bad the book is $168.00! I once studied a little Tibetan myself — it has one of the most beautiful alphabets in the world, I think. Unfortunately, my Tibetan Grammar and I have long since parted ways. I think it went into a library donation a few years ago. My Persian and Gujarati Grammars both went at the same time, I think; unfortunate, in retrospect, since all three might have yielded material relevant to my most recent posts.

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  3. Do you overemphasize Khand? It appears on the LotR map to be only the small section of Rhûn to the southeast of Mordor, and the Variags, mentioned twice in "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields", are easily matched in prominence by the Wainriders and the Balchoth.

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  4. N.E.B., no, I don’t think I’m overemphasizing Khand. We know so little about Khamûl’s origins (or those of the other Nazgûl) that we are in speculative territory no matter what. But, to me, the phonological / etymological synergy of Khamûl with Khand cannot be ignored. And the geographical connections between the Mongol Khans and the city of Kumul (Khamul) are tantalizing, too. We are never told so, explicitly, but I feel we can make a reasonably sure guess that this is, in fact, Khamûl’s homeland.

    You’re right that Khand appears small in comparison to Rhûn on Christopher Tolkien’s map. But I think Rhûn is meant to represent not a “country”, but rather an entire region or subcontinent. Rhûn might be analagous to Eriador, say, with Khand analagous to Minhiriath or Enedwaith. Plus, it may mean something that Khand is the closest to Mordor of the named lands in the east and south.

    But also, if I throw away Khand, what can I replace it with in the geographical argument? Not that I absolutely have to have a geographical argument, but I think it enriches the discussion. The evidence for Khand may be somewhat small, but the evidence for connecting Khamûl to the Wainriders or the Balchoth? — I don’t know of a single mote to be stirred up into the light. Do you?

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  5. This is a lot of fun, but feels rather frothy.

    I see "Khamûl" as one of those made-up name-words that Tolkien loved so. Follow me here:

    "Kha-" = vaguely non-western and exotic. Worked for Khazad-dûm and Khand, works here. Conveys that "black Numenorean feeling"!

    "-mûl" = rhymes with "-gûl" as in Nazgûl, sounds equally foul and septic. Perfect!

    In short, sometimes Tolkien just made up a word because of its sound associations according to his particular "word aesthetic". I believe that's the case here, without discounting the associative values you've discovered: Asiatic/Eastern, alien to the West, with evil undertones.

    But no one, after reading Tolkien's admission in LotR Appendix E that

    "the use of the circumflex in other languages such as Adûnaic or Dwarvish has no special significance, and is used merely to mark these out as alien tongues (as with the use of k)"

    can really claim Tolkienian language scholar virginity again!

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  6. Squire: you may be right, of course. There’s just no way to know — unless some undiscovered manuscript should come to light. Carl told me that he can’t recall seeing anything in the (as yet) unpublished linguistic papers. It’s possible that a much closer look at the manuscripts at Marquette might help, but then again, probably not.

    Still, even in cases of ad hoc invention, I think you can’t easily rule out Tolkien’s almost subconscious sensitivity to the meanings of roots and cognates. Even if he initially picked a word just for, as you put it, its “sound associations”, he would immediately have begun ruminating on what the word could mean in this or that language — real-world or otherwise. It’s just the way his mind worked. There’s the famous case of hobbit, for example, of which I don’t need to remind you.

    As to the frothiness, well, this is a blog, you know, and not a master’s thesis! ;)

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  7. Hello, I realize that this may not get to you, but I am impressed with this article. I am a little bit of a Tolkien Scholar myself, but have yet to get into etymology, so far, it has mostly been sociology, geography/cartography and studying the myth of Middle-Earth as it compares to other mythology (I studied for a while under Joseph Campbell back in the '80s).

    I wanted to discuss this article with you, specifically why you think that Khamûl was from Khand, and not from the area around the sea of Rhûn where the Easterlings were supposed to have the seat of their empire (That is from the History of Middle Earth).

    Anyway... I may be contacted at matthew_bailey at mac dot com...

    I grew up in Dallas, BTW (I was even on the cover of a magazine in the late 80s in Dallas and greater TX), are you a native?

    Matthew Bailey

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  8. Hi Matthew. :) I did indeed get your comment, and thank you for taking the time to leave it. Hopefully you’ll be checking back in to see this reply (I’ll send it via email as well). I’m interested in hearing more about your background; a quick Google search appears to show that you’re also interested in medieval Spanish literature ...? And tell me more about your studies of Tolkien ... (Feel free to email, if you prefer that over leaving such things in blog comments. My email address is in my profile.)

    I wanted to discuss this article with you, specifically why you think that Khamûl was from Khand, and not from the area around the sea of Rhûn where the Easterlings were supposed to have the seat of their empire (That is from the History of Middle Earth).

    I wrote about why I connected Khamûl to Khand in the comments to this post, specifically here. But as the area around the Sea of Rhûn, before I reply, can you refresh my memory as to where you picked that up exactly? That way, I can look up your reference and reply with it in mind.

    I grew up in Dallas, BTW (I was even on the cover of a magazine in the late 80s in Dallas and greater TX), are you a native?

    More or less. I wasn’t born in Texas, but I’ve been here for a little over 30 years, most of my life. I lived in Houston growing up, went to high school in Grapevine, then Texas A&M University, then back to Houston briefly, and then back to the Dallas area after that. I’ve been here for the last 13 years. What part of Dallas did you grow up in? :)

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  9. No source exactly as of yet as to Khamûl's homeland, but JRRT did seem to differentiate between "Khand", and "Easterlings".

    Khand was more to the South and East of Mordor, whereas the Easterlings are almost always described as coming from the area around Rhûn.

    I need to get the higher volumes of History of Middle Earth sent to me (they are in Houston, and I am in SF CA), as I remember some discussion in one of them concerning the lands of the East (this was where Aragorn/Elessar's son was supposed to have gone off with Pippin's son on some adventure or another that was supposed to have been his continuation of the Middle-Earth saga - This is mentioned in several of the History of Middle Earth Volumes).

    Tolkien also mentions that there is a vast nation/empire in the area of The Sea of Rhûn, which is where Khamûl is supposed to have had his seat of power after Sauron left to come back to the west (This was during the Time that Gandalf made his way into Dol-Goldûr, and Sauron fled to keep his identity secret for a while longer). If Sauron, or Khamûl had gone to Khand, JRRT would probably have said "South" and not "East", as Khand would have been more south than east... much more southerly than easterly looking at the map. The men of Khand are also described during the Pelennor Fields portion as being among the men of the south, and not the east... Most of the Easterlings were kept back to fight on the Morannon.

    Those are just the bits off the top of my head. I will need to go verify them, but that is what I recall from having just re-read the trilogy a month or so ago.

    Matthew

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  10. JRRT did seem to differentiate between “Khand”, and “Easterlings”. [...] Khand was more to the South and East of Mordor, whereas the Easterlings are almost always described as coming from the area around Rhûn.

    Well, I don’t know. I think you may be reading a bit more into it that Tolkien actually says. He is nowhere quite that explicit, that I can recall. As to Easterlings coming from Rhûn, well, Rhûn just means “east”, so of course Easterlings come from the East. As I said in one of my comments, I think Rhûn is meant to represent a much larger area, something like a subcontinent, rather than simply a country.

    To me, Khand is basically a small country in the east and south. Judging by the Middle-earth map, I would say it’s more likely part of Rhûn than of Harad, but that may just be my take on it. Mordor, after all, is referred to as the East, even though it is a bit further south as well, and right next to Khand.

    Tolkien also mentions that there is a vast nation/empire in the area of The Sea of Rhûn, which is where Khamûl is supposed to have had his seat of power after Sauron left to come back to the west (This was during the Time that Gandalf made his way into Dol-Goldûr, and Sauron fled to keep his identity secret for a while longer).

    I think you may be misremembering this. In “The Hunt for the Ring”, Khamûl dwelt in Dol Guldur after Sauron returned to Mordor. I find no mention of Rhûn in those writings. There are writings about a people living around the Sea of Rhûn in connection to the wainriders and strife in Gondor, however. Perhaps you are conflating the two?

    The men of Khand are also described during the Pelennor Fields portion as being among the men of the south, and not the east... Most of the Easterlings were kept back to fight on the Morannon.

    I have to quibble here, too, I’m afraid. In the chapter to which you refer, Tolkien writes: “new strength came now streaming to the field out of Osgiliath. There they had been mustered for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor, waiting on the call of their Captain. He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand. Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues.”

    As you can see, Easterlings are together with Variags of Khand, and separated from the Southrons (Haradrim) by a period.

    Bottom line: I don’t think we know much of anything for sure. You may very well be right that Khamûl came from much further east and not from Khand. But I don’t feel persuaded of that yet. If you do happen to locate some specific references, please pass them on. :)

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  11. I think that Khâmul might be correlated, indeed, with the Goidelic origins indeed.

    It seems to be a cognate with Camulus, a name given to a God of War. Seems to fit very well

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camulus.

    There is speculations that the name con be related to Camelot. And it seems that there are indeed "dark arthurian" elements in the Nazgûl.

    BTW, I think that you 'll like of taking a look in my Celtic/etymological speculations posted in this topic in LoTr Plaza. An essay writen by you was quite useful in the last analysis that I've done there.

    http://www.lotrplaza.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=226476&PID=7138035#7138035

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  12. Hi, Anon. Thanks for the comment. I’ll have to take a look at that thread when I get a chance. It sounds interesting. :)

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  13. Hey, Jason, thanks for the contribution to the debate in the forum. I hope that my explanations and sources to my belief that Medwynn was intended as an analogue to Tom Bombadil have been made clear to you.

    Best regards :-)

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  14. Paulo, yes, your views and reasons are clear. I still do not find them completely convincing, but that’s okay. Few such conclusions can be totally convincing. :) In this case, I think Lloyd Alexander had in mind primarily the Welsh equivalent to the Noah myth, and secondarily, the original Biblical myth of Noah itself. There might have been a tertiary layer in which Alexander thought consciously of Tolkien’s Tom Bombadil, but I don’t see any compelling reason to think so. (And unfortunately, we can no longer ask him.) If you ever come across an explicit statement to this effect by Alexander (he gave many interviews over the course of his long life), please do let me know.

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  15. Idem, Jason. Equaly we can easily argue that Arawn was conceived in a tertiary level as an analogue of Tolkien's Sauron, with Satan correspending to a secondary level.

    But I think that you could see for yourself that I'm hardly the first person that saw the correspondences between the characters. Several other readers also had that impression .

    And it seems to me that in a work of fiction with so many inntentional similarities with LotR it's a reasonable assumption to presume that Medwynn was intended as an analogue as well, at least as you said, in a tertiary level.

    One curiosity that you'll find intriguing: take a look in the Gaelic counterpart of Nevydd Nav Neivion, that is, nowadays, transcribed/adapted with another less similar name ( I know that you'll find what is by yourself), take notice of the name of one of his sons and think about the strange resemblance with one of the names given to Bombadil.

    I don't think that this is a mere coincidence.

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  16. And what about Khâmul/Camulus? I'm curious about your opinion.

    It seems to me that there is a similarity with the feminine name "Camila" ( maybe it was based in this name that Sheridan Le Fanu coined "Carmilla"?

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  17. My short answer would be, er, maybe. It seems to me that you have a tendency to grasp a little too eagerly at anything with an even remotely similar arrangement of consonants. Sometimes this approach can lead you in interesting directions, but you need to take it further.

    Could Khamûl be related to the Gaelic War-god, Camulus? Maybe. We don’t have any evidence for it, and I’m not sure it’s enough that Camulus was a War-god whose cult left traces in the British Isles. As to connecting the Nazgûl to Camelot and “Dark Arthurian” elements, well, what other elements do you see?

    I think what I would rather see from you is a well-though-out argument, setting out in a systematic way all the evidence you can find in order to make a cogent argument, rather than a series of more or less unconnected guesses based on little more than phonological similarity. For example, if you want to suggest Camulus as a possible source for Tolkien’s Khamûl, you should begin by looking for evidence that Tolkien could have even been aware of this pagan deity. I can think of some avenues to explore in that regard, but I’m going to leave it to you to discover them for yourself. :)

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  18. Karma + Camilla? It fits so well.

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  19. Well, in the first place Camulus is connected to the etymology of "cam" that yourself was mentioning here. This by itself already is

    I wasn't even trying to make a cogent analysis of Khamûl/Camulus, since that it was you that mentioned the etymological interpretation of "crooked". I thought that you'd be interested in doing it by yourself. It was because of this that I not speak further or explained my positions with more detail. Sorry if I've given cause to a misunderstanding.

    I've read. And quite frankly I'm not basing solely in name similarities but also in the evidence that suggests that Tolkien indeed was well aware of a vast material about Gaelic/Gaulish culture and its connections with the Matter of Britain.

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  20. The evidence that Tolkien was well aware of the "Celtic" roots of Camelot and its possible conection with Camulus is easily found in the last essays writen by Dimitra Fimi and in the book of Hammond and Scull.

    The enormous "Celtic library" of Tolkien that was donated to Oxford after his death very probably contains some information about this, don't you think?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camelot#Etymology

    "the name "Camelot" of Arthurian legend may have referred to the capital of Britannia (Camulodunum - modern Colchester) in Roman times. If historical the first part of it, Cam, [i]could also reflect the Celtic word meaning "crooked"[/i] which is commonly used in place names as seen in Camlann".

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  21. And if you don't trust Wikipedia here is it is another source

    http://books.google.com/books?id=TwK4IMXqVQQC&pg=PT14&dq=camelot+crooked+etymology&ei=zD5CS7fYIZeGygTzsu3WCA&hl=pt-BR&cd=6

    If Camelot is connected to (theoreticaly) both Camulus and cam(crooked or "wandering") presumably, Camulus is connected to "cam" as well.

    There are several references to "dark twist in arthurian Legends in Tolkien: the Dead Men of Dunharrow, the Once and Future King , Ar Pharazôn, the "seven last ships" that brought Elendil of the Westernesse ( resembling the Spoils of Annwn and the "never returned save by seven" or something like this. All these examples in which Tolkien dealt with the Undead effect of postponing death in a deliberate reversal of some Arthurian Legends.

    Then the interpretation of Khamûl as being an analogue to Camulus seems to be fitting in this pattern. And I remember that one legend regardin Ares, states that he was slightly "crooked" when he was released from his imprisonment in the magic "bottle". If Mars, his Roman counterpart, was sincretized with Camulus, it seems to give an interesting angle to the term "crooked" as meaning "bent" and forced to a fate worse than death itself.
    Just some thoughts.
    Hope that helped.

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  22. About Camulus in the same book.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=TwK4IMXqVQQC&pg=PT9&dq=camelot+camulus+christopher+street&ei=9CxES6vSAoGGzgTq-4HdBw&hl=pt-BR&cd=1

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  23. Paulo, you’ve dropped in nine comments for my last three, and in fact, you’ve posted five consecutive unanswered comments! Where does it end? I think you’ve made it very clear where you stand, and I thought I had done likewise. You will not convince anybody that your theories are correct simply by inundating them with a more or less random assortment of assertions, “back up” by an equally random collection of links.

    I think our conversation has run its course, don’t you?

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  27. I've not made the posts intending to flood your comment box or persuade you by all means Jason. :-(

    I'm sorry if I have given that interpretation, but Blogspot doesn't permit to edit the previous messages ( and doesn't completely delete them) and references and ideas, simply, just ocurred to me in a rhythm so swift that overwhelmed me.

    Thus, I've tried ( too hardly it seems) to dispell your initial impression that I was making guesses without the due research, based, solely, in the phonetical resemblance.

    It's a pity that you have understood the posts as being a thing entirely distinct of which they were intended to be due to an unfortunate level of miscommunication or WEB distortion ( writen media, etc). Furthermore, English is not my first language, then this fact, surely, adds to the possible confusion.

    It's the nature of the beast, though. It happens, and I wholeheartedly apologize for my part in creating this episode.

    However, I must add, that I don't think that it is fair to say that I based the connection between Khamûl and Camulus, mostly, in the "phonological similarity" between the names, regardless of your POV about the issue. Likewise, the links and the arguments aren't "random" and were posted because they seemed to be useful to you and complementary to your own guesses and research. Even more so if we consider the fact that Tolkien, several times, seemed to combine two distinct sources with phonetical affinities in order to create a name that pays homage to both of them.Thus, for example, IMO, Camulus and Kumul aren't mutualy exclusive).

    Anyways, I wasn't intending to "convince" you of anything, I was, simply,(too much) eager at sharing info that seemed to be connected to your own speculations,mostly because of the "crooked" element found in the names.

    Again, my most sincere apologies if eagerness to share seemed to be a preachy self-righteousness or intolerance towards your POV. Sometimes, all of us can give that impression in a discussion with speculative content, cannot we?

    Best regards. :-)

    Paulo

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  28. Hi, Paulo,

    Thanks for clarifying. I’ll make one last response as well, and then I suggest we leave it there.

    I’m sorry if I have given that interpretation, but Blogspot doesn’t permit to edit the previous messages (and doesn’t completely delete them) and references and ideas, simply, just ocurred to me in a rhythm so swift that overwhelmed me.

    It overwhelmed me, too. ;)

    Thus, I’ve tried ( too hardly it seems) to dispell your initial impression that I was making guesses without the due research, based, solely, in the phonetical resemblance.

    But the kind of references you have found do not always (in fact, rarely, from what I’ve seen) justify the conclusions that you have drawn. And that isn’t what I would call research. I would call it guesswork, in which you have some theories already, then you look for evidence to back them up. Sometimes this approach is reasonable, depending on the nature of the guess(es), but most of the time, it’s not.

    However, I must add, that I don’t think that it is fair to say that I based the connection between Khamûl and Camulus, mostly, in the “phonological similarity” between the names, regardless of your POV about the issue. Likewise, the links and the arguments aren’t “random” and were posted because they seemed to be useful to you and complementary to your own guesses and research.

    Well, you will remember that I agreed it was possible. But you seem to think that this Celtic figure, Camulus , was definitely in Tolkien’s mind. That’s a very different thing. Moreover, it’s only possible, but certainly not definite, that Camulus is related to the Celtic cam “crooked”, and it’s also not certain that Camelot derives from it; and even if either or both do, there is very little to connect the character of Khamûl (little as we know about him) to either. In the case of Camelot, I’m inclined to say there is nothing to connect them. I do not really want to invite further discussion here, but I would ask you to think to yourself whether there is really anything of any substance to link Khamûl to Camelot and the Matter of Britain. I don’t see it.

    Of the source you cited, let me offer a brief comment — not to invite rebuttal, but merely to explain my thinking. London’s Camelot and the Secrets of the Grail, by Christopher Street, published by Earthstars Publishing, on “Midwinter Solstice 2009”. Perhaps you will think me elitist, but I cannot take such a title and publisher seriously. This is not a scholarly work, and its claims are not well sourced.

    Again, my most sincere apologies if eagerness to share seemed to be a preachy self-righteousness or intolerance towards your POV. Sometimes, all of us can give that impression in a discussion with speculative content, cannot we?

    Thank you for the apology, and certainly we can engage in speculation. But I’d say that when you own 13 out of 27 comments (thus far), you’ve probably gone a bit too far.

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  29. "I do not really want to invite further discussion here, but I would ask you to think to yourself whether there is really anything of any substance to link Khamûl to Camelot and the Matter of Britain. I don’t see"

    Incidentaly, yes, personaly, I see several things of substance that connects Khamûl and , virtualy, the entire history and nature of the Nazgûl to elements that resemble a reversal of archetypes connected to Arthurian Legend and, thus, to Camelot and Camulus.

    But thanks for the clarification made when you have recognized that there is a possibility of connection between Khamûl and Camulus. I don't think that this fact was very clear before of your last reply. :-)

    Equaly, I don't ever write that I have total conviction about the issue, if I've had that conviction I'wouldn't have asked your opinion about the matter and suggested ( my main goal) this possibilty as a possible fruitful path to further research.

    My suggestion of Camulus as a possible source was intended exactly as your propositions regards Kumul or Kamel, apparently, were: pure and simple speculations, triggered ( but not limited to) by "phonological resemblance".

    Thanks for your feedback. :-)

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  30. "In fact, Medwyn shares a bit more in common with Beorn from The Hobbit than he does with Bombadil (but no, I'm not suggesting Beorn is a direct analogue either").

    While reading your reply in the thread to PauloIapetus I've stumbled upon an interesting tidbit of information that could be possibly connected to this and somewhat
    strenghtens the notion of having untentional parallels between those characters.

    An odd coincidence that I've discovered recently: Tolkien originaly gave the name Medwed to Beorn's character, a name suspiciously similar to Medwynn. Could it be caused by mere chance?

    Or could Lloyd Alexander be aware of this fact when he wrote the first book of his series? Maybe he exchanged letters with Tolkien himself and , thus, possessed the knowledge about previous versions of some of his characters?

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  31. It’s a good thought, but almost impossibly unlikely, on several grounds. For one, the name Medwed is Slavic, but the name Medwyn is Welsh. Both are Indo-European languages, but not at all closely related apart from that.

    Tolkien originally chose Medwed because it means “bear”. I can’t say much about the etymology of the name Medwyn (other than that the –wyn element probably means “friend”), but I doubt it has the same meaning as the Slavic Medwed. I could look into it ... but then we come to the second problem.

    Tolkien and Alexander, it is almost certain, did not correspond. Alexander was writing his books during the middle to late 1960’s, when Tolkien was already old, famous, and desperately trying to finish The Silmarillion. The chances he corresponded with an American author and revealed to him the unpublished draft name of a character, and that this correspondence has remained unknown, well, the chances rapidly approach zero. Alexander has acknolwedged his imaginative debts to Tolkien more than once, but he has never mentioned corresponding with him. Wouldn’t he have mentioned it, if he had?

    So, yes, it could be, and almost certainly is, mere chance. But as I said, it’s a good thought, and it offers another way to read the two authors’ works together (in spite of their intentions).

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  32. And I know that you have already mentioned Medwed here. But it seems interesting that Medwed and Medwyn are etymologicaly related, both of them stemmed from the Indo-Gemanic root "to move slowly or soft". A fitting name for a Noah analogue that is the Patriarch enthroned after the "calming of waters"

    http://www.archive.org/stream/rivernamesofeuro00fergrich/rivernamesofeuro00fergrich_djvu.txt

    "In any case, it seems to me that a
    Saxon derivation can hardly be sustained.
    For Medoa"cus, ( = Medwacus), occurs as the
    ancient name of a river in Venetia this appears to be precisely the same name as that
    of the Medwag or Medway and in Venetia
    we can account for a Celtic element, but not
    for a German. In Nennius the name stands
    as Meguaid or Megwed ; and comparing this
    with a river called the Medvied(itza) or
    Medviet(za) in Russia, it would seem rather
    probable that the form is not altogether false,
    but that only it should be Medwed instead
    of Megwed. In that case it would probably
    be only another form of Medweg, for d and
    g sometimes interchange in the Celtic 'dia-
    lects, as in the Gaelic uidh and uigh, via, a
    word which indeed I take to be related to
    the one in question. Again, in the Meduana of France and the English Medwin,
    we have a third form of ending, ivdn or
    win. And this may probably only be one
    of those extended forms in n so common
    in the Celtic languages/ (...)

    And I should on the whole prefer a derivation
    * E. G. Welsh tti, llion, stream, ttif, llifon, flood, srann, srannan, humming, &c. from the same root as mead, mulsum, viz., Sansc. mid, to soften, Lat. mitis, Gael, meath,
    soft, mild finding in Old Norse mida, to
    move slowly or softly, the word most nearly
    approximating to the sense, and thus deriving the name of the Medway from its gentle
    flow."

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  33. Ah, sorry, I was distracted searching and transcribing the source cited in the last post and didn't see your reply. I'm not certain about its acuracy but I hope that it is useful.

    About the possibility of a "secret" exchange of letters we know for a fact that there are several lost letters of Tolkien and some books writen by readers of him seem to show some "insider information" before the letters being published. They were writen in a tone suspiciouly reminiscent of texts published in HoME several decades later.

    Example: Paul J. Kocher's book and his incredible insightful comments about Sauron's motivations.

    Maybe Alexander read letters sent or have spokent to someone else? Someone as the source to the some of the mysteriously acurate comments of Robert Foster that mentioned letters(plural) sent to his friend of Tolkien society but that had only one letter included in Carpenter's compilation?

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  34. And thanks for the clarification about Medwed's etymology

    http://www.billcasselman.com/letters/about_medved_june_2008untitled.htm

    It seems an interesting coincidence that the two names, Medwed or Megwed/ Medwinn the river and the Medwed Slavic name of bear can be phoneticaly identical but stemming from diferent roots. Maybe Tolkien could have been aware of both of them?

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  35. About the possibility of a “secret” exchange of letters we know for a fact that there are several lost letters of Tolkien and some books writen by readers of him seem to show some “insider information” before the letters being published. [...] Maybe Alexander read letters sent or have spokent to someone else?

    If you wish to believe in this theory, there’s nothing I can say to disuade you. My opinion, to be perfectly clear, is that there is absolutely no connection between the Tolkien’s draft-name and Alexander’s.

    It seems an interesting coincidence that the two names [...] can be phoneticaly identical but stemming from diferent roots. Maybe Tolkien could have been aware of both of them?

    Tolkien was aware of many things that have no bearing on his fiction. I think this is about as far as we can go with any hypothesis that J.R.R. Tolkien revealed to Lloyd Alexander the use (and abandonment) of a name, from which Alexander picked up a different, but similar sounding, name. There’s nothing to such a theory but wishful thinking.

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  36. I didn't said that I believe in this theory, only that I think that it wasn't so impossible.

    Maybe it was wishful thinking but is a tricky thing to presume that all the letters exchanged by creators are divulged by them. Gene Wolfe only mentioned and transcribed the letter received by Tolkien in the late Nineties, when he was a known author,then I don't think that the writers always divulge conversations made through this media.

    http://home.clara.net/andywrobertson/wolfemountains.html

    Again, thanks for the explanation. I hope that the other Medwed can shed some light in the etymology of Medwynn that it seems to mean "soft friend".

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  37. The letter received by Gene Wolfe was sent in 1966 and only divulged in 2001. Then we know that Tolkien exchanged letters with unknown Yankee younger readers in the Sixties and that , even a fan and an author of fantasy such as Gene Wolfe can be silent about this during Decades.

    I'm not stating that the same MUST HAVE happened with Lloyd but I don't think that this is an unconceivable possibility given the circunstances.

    Thank you again :-)

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  38. "Alexander has acknolwedged his imaginative debts to Tolkien more than once, but he has never mentioned corresponding with him. Wouldn’t he have mentioned it, if he had?"


    Just to add one more thing in regards to this fair objection of yours. I think that a new younger Fantasy author can be justifiably fearful of divulging an exchange of letters and/or previous encounters/conversations with aclaimed and older writers.

    The divulging of such things can increase the almost inevitable accusations of plagiarism that abound in the specialized media and respective Fandoms when there is an overlapping of sources, styles and intended audiences as it ocurred with both these authors.

    And Lloyd already coped with such accusations in the Sixties, if I'm not mistaken.Several reviews of his work complained about his similarities with Tolkien's works in spite of many persons recognizing the merits of Prydain's saga.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=yDVykkOOP6QC&pg=PA119&dq=however+the+usual+accusation+tolkien+lloyd+alexander&hl=pt-BR&cd=1

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  39. Jason, I was delighted to find this as I'm working on something on the Nazgul and "un-naming." Given that the only other identifiable Nazgul is the Witch-king, and he is known only by his title (in spite of the efforts of some to make out that his NAME is Angmar), do you think that Khamul might be a title? Building on the association with Khand, perhaps King of Khand or simply a person from Khand? Given how none of the other Nazgul have names, and the Mouth of Sauron has forgotten his name, I think it might logically follow that the wraithing process would take away the names of all the Nazgul. (Of course, as you know, I'm no linguist!) --Janet Brennan Croft

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  40. Thanks for the comment, Janet!

    I have to admit, your idea that Khamûl might be a title hadn't occurred to me! It's interesting and seems possible. And you've actually just made me wonder whether "Shadow of the East" might simply be intended as a gloss for the name in some language of the region! Tolkien does this often, giving a name and immediately translating it. That idea also had not occurred to me, but it makes sense, especially if Khand refers to the East in a more general way and *mûl is meant to be "shadow". The two might plausibly merge with assimilation, thus: Khand + mûl > *Khandmûl > Khamûl = "Shadow of/over Khand, Shadow of the East". This seems pretty likely to me in hindsight of my original post and is actually kind of exciting, and I have you to thank for catalyzing the idea. I was too busy looking for kernels of real-world meaning, merely in fun. Of course, even this is still highly speculative.

    I will say that even if "Shadow of the East" is a title or nickname, and Khamûl translates it, the way Tolkien uses it in these passages is still much more like a name than a title. And Tolkien calls him other things that are more like titles and more analogous to the "Witch-king of Angmar" and "Morgul-lord" titles, e.g., "the Nazgûl of Dol Guldur" (UT, 339). So it seems less like a title and more like a name to me, but maybe it still originated as a title or cognomen of some kind and was not the original man's name. That seems likely enough. If so, I think it would fit your un-naming / wraithing hypothesis very well. It doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to me. Or at least, no more a stretch than anything else we try to say of a character about whom we know so very little. :)

    One more point. We shouldn't forgot Gothmog, the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul. We don't know, but he may have been a Nazgûl. If so, there's another name. Or is that too a title? Obviously, the line between names and titles is a fuzzy one. The elements in the name Gothmog (see the Etymologies) are "dread, terror" + "compel, force, subject, oppress", all of which suggests a being with some real power, and not just an orc-chieftain or something like that. In a draft passage, Tolkien wrote that the rest of the Nazgûl fled back to Mordor after the fall of their leader; however, he rejected that immediately and replaced it with the passage introducing Gothmog.

    Very interesting food for thought ...

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  41. Hello Jason. Nice reading!
    The meaning of 'Gothmog' as the 'Voice of his Master' has been advanced already by someone (Kloczko?), also making a connection with the Mouth of Sauron if I remember correctly. The whole 'title as a name' thing has also the precedence with Herumor and Fuinur, the two 'black numenoreans' mentioned in the Silmarillion. Those names basically mean 'Dark master' and 'Deep darkness' or something to that effect, hardly their real names. I came to a similar conclusion about Khamûl, noting that in Sindarin 'mûl' means also 'slave, thrall', possibly making Khamûl 'the slave from Khand', or, if a connection to the element KHAL could be drawn (as in 'orchal', meaning 'superior' ), Khamûl could become 'Superior slave', something like 'second in command'... -- Francesco Nepitello

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