tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post9161090372704215720..comments2024-03-11T16:29:13.619-05:00Comments on Lingwë - Musings of a Fish: WOTD: Hortus conclususJason Fisherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-86650974068601018042009-04-03T14:51:00.000-05:002009-04-03T14:51:00.000-05:00Yes it's quite tantalizing. Certain Kabbalistic wr...Yes it's quite tantalizing. Certain Kabbalistic writings also connects this unusual four-letter acrostic (?) with the four rivers of Eden.<BR/><BR/>Concerning the etymology I will also like to mention the Sanskrit word <EM>Paradesha</EM> ("supreme/elevated country"), from which the Chaldean <EM>Pardes</EM> probably can been traced.Idhernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-8950432033059525542009-04-03T13:33:00.000-05:002009-04-03T13:33:00.000-05:00Thanks, Idher — for the kind words and for the com...Thanks, Idher — for the kind words and for the comment. I knew nothing about the exegetical acronym, PRDS, but it’s really interesting, isn’t it? Here’s <A HREF="http://www.kolel.org/torahstory/module4/page3.html" REL="nofollow">another explanation</A> I found, with an example verse examined through each of the four approaches. I am going to have to look into this further!Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-87142041573678533482009-04-03T13:01:00.000-05:002009-04-03T13:01:00.000-05:00Nice posting!The four consonants of the Hebrew wor...Nice posting!<BR/><BR/>The four consonants of the Hebrew word <EM>pardes</EM> in verse 13 also designate <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardes_(Jewish_exegesis)" REL="nofollow">four methods of Biblical exegesis</A> (the "Paradise" of divine knowledge), ranging from the simple to the mystical.Idhernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-11929693592431315542009-04-02T09:19:00.000-05:002009-04-02T09:19:00.000-05:00Yes, a direct reference to Song of Solomon 4:12, o...Yes, a direct reference to Song of Solomon 4:12, only rendered into the plural. Though not an Inkling herself, Sayers was among Lewis’s circle of friends. Nice observation, Harm.Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-29896208291863633162009-04-01T18:04:00.000-05:002009-04-01T18:04:00.000-05:00On another Inklings related vein, I was reminded o...On another Inklings related vein, I was reminded of the use Dorothy L. Sayers made in <I>Gaudy Night</I> of <I>Horti conclusi, fontes signati</I>.Harm J. Schelhaasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-53973292379633660942009-04-01T14:55:00.000-05:002009-04-01T14:55:00.000-05:00Hi, Alex. Thanks for the information on the Hebrew...Hi, Alex. Thanks for the information on the Hebrew text. It confirms everything else. This would be the earlier reading to which Jerome returned (rather than base his Latin translation on the LXX).<BR/><BR/>The Marian view of Galadriel goes way back, actually. Some of the basic points of comparison include her Grace and her gift of <I>lembas</I>, seen as a kind of Eucharist. Father Robert Murray, the grandson of Sir James Murray (of the OED), read parts of <I>The Lord of the Rings</I> shortly before publication and wrote to Tolkien in 1953 comparing Galadriel to the Virgin Mary. Tolkien replied (#142 in <I>Letters</I>), to which letter I would refer you. This is the letter where Tolkien (now famously) declared that “<I>The Lord of the Rings</I> is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision.” See also the fragment printed as #320, in which Tolkien commented again on the (imperfect) resemblance.<BR/><BR/>Since then, scholars have touched on this many times. A sampling includes Clyde Kilby, Ralph Wood, Stratford Caldecott, and Bradley Birzer. Also, take a look at p. 317 of Hammond and Scull’s <I>The Lord of the Rings: A Reader’s Companion</I>. And okay, I may as well put in a plug for myself: see the entry “Galadriel” in <I>The J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: Scholarship and Critical Assessment</I> (pp. 227–8)— which I wrote. :)Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-70546059998192210322009-04-01T14:29:00.000-05:002009-04-01T14:29:00.000-05:00The Hebrew for the Masoretic text in verse 12 is g...The Hebrew for the Masoretic text in verse 12 is gan nâ‘ûl (I don't know how to make italics work :( gan meaning “garden,” and nâ‘ûl being the qal stem passive participle for the verb “lock, bolt, bar.” So the meaning “bolted garden” seems to follow both the earlier translation of the LXX. <BR/><BR/>Interestingly enough, in verse 13, the word is paredês, which is the loan-word construction you guys are talking about. <BR/><BR/>Now I have never heard that Galadriel is associated with the Virgin. What is the basic idea behind that, and where has it been pointed out? That would be a conversation I would like to look at.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13721162340739400165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-30579798821696231672009-04-01T09:44:00.000-05:002009-04-01T09:44:00.000-05:00Hey, Gary, there’s an etymology I had never looked...Hey, Gary, there’s an etymology I had never looked into and did not know! Fascinating, and of course, a perfect fit with my WOTD. Thanks for contributing that.<BR/><BR/>Considering that the Greek word was used in the LXX, I was immediately curious to learn why Jerome used <I>hortus conclusus</I> and not <I>paradisus</I>, borrowed directly from the Greek, in Song of Solomon 4:12. I looked into it, and — <I>quelle surprise!</I> — Jerome does use <I>paradisus</I> twice in the Vulgate. In Ecclesiastes chapter 40, and then — right there in the Song of Solomon, in the <I>very next</I> verse following <I>hortus conclusus!</I> Having found what I wanted yesterday, I had read no further, but there it was! The verse reads: <I>Emissiones tuae <B>paradisus</B> malorum punicorum cum pomorum fructibus cypri cum nardo</I> — “Thy plants are a <B>paradise</B> of pomegranates with the fruits of the orchard, cypress with spikenard.”<BR/><BR/>So the next question was, what does the LXX have in Song of Solomon 4:12–3? In 4:12, it’s literally an enclosed garden: <I>κήπος κεκλεισμένος</I>. In 4:13, though usually translated simply as “garden” or “orchard”, LXX has indeed <I>παράδεισος</I>. So Jerome was following the LXX very closely, which must mean that the Hebrew (which I haven’t yet looked into) must have much the same words, since the whole purpose of Jerome’s new translation was to return to the Masoretic text.<BR/><BR/>Interesting ...Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-16906346602527673882009-03-31T20:35:00.000-05:002009-03-31T20:35:00.000-05:00Interesting -- I'd never heard the term hortus con...Interesting -- I'd never heard the term <I>hortus conclusus</I>. But your description reminds me very much of the etymology of "paradise," described here by <A HREF="http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/P0057400.html" REL="nofollow">Bartleby</A>:<BR/><BR/><I>The history of paradise is an extreme example of amelioration, the process by which a word comes to refer to something better than what it used to refer to. The old Iranian language Avestan had a noun pairidaza-, “a wall enclosing a garden or orchard,” which is composed of pairi–, “around,” and daza– “wall.” The adverb and preposition pairi is related to the equivalent Greek form peri, as in perimeter. Daza– comes from the Indo-European root *dheigh–, “to mold, form, shape.” Zoroastrian religion encouraged maintaining arbors, orchards, and gardens, and even the kings of austere Sparta were edified by seeing the Great King of Persia planting and maintaining his own trees in his own garden. Xenophon, a Greek mercenary soldier who spent some time in the Persian army and later wrote histories, recorded the pairidaza- surrounding the orchard as paradeisos, using it not to refer to the wall itself but to the huge parks that Persian nobles loved to build and hunt in. This Greek word was used in the Septuagint translation of Genesis to refer to the Garden of Eden, whence Old English eventually borrowed it around 1200.</I>Gary Schmidtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-50439158247978547102009-03-31T19:32:00.000-05:002009-03-31T19:32:00.000-05:00Quite so, thank you!Indeed, I could have said much...Quite so, thank you!<BR/><BR/>Indeed, I could have said much more. For example, one thinks of Samwise, the Gardner. And the <I>horti conclusi</I> of Fangorn and the Old Forest.<BR/><BR/>There’s more in Lewis as well. I mentioned the Garden in the west of Narnia, but there is also Aslan’s country, particularly the flowery description in <I>The Voyage of the Dawn Treader</I>. And there is a fictive reflection of the Garden of Eden in the Space Trilogy too.Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-26932500800586712532009-03-31T18:53:00.000-05:002009-03-31T18:53:00.000-05:00And Galadriel herself is also associated with the ...And Galadriel herself is also associated with the Virgin Mary...Ardamirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12535734219325255452noreply@blogger.com