tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post1334912753660228358..comments2024-03-11T16:29:13.619-05:00Comments on Lingwë - Musings of a Fish: “Two shades frozen in a single hole”Jason Fisherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-41237036053840439622010-04-01T09:27:38.807-05:002010-04-01T09:27:38.807-05:00Thanks for the comment, Mark. I agree completely. ...Thanks for the comment, Mark. I agree completely. Dante finds a wonderful balance between appealing to elements of folkloric and mythical traditions and, as you say, diverging from convention at unexpected moments. Much like another author we know and love (as Giova hinted in his second comment, above).Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-86584312260140392112010-04-01T06:00:47.548-05:002010-04-01T06:00:47.548-05:00This is a topic that I'm really interested in ...This is a topic that I'm really interested in as the novel I'm currently writing is partly set in an Inferno based on Dante's. I think Dante shows his genius by doing the unexpected. I never thought about the possibility of a play on words as well, but that would explain a lot.Mark Lordhttp://marklord.infonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-37924429553830032502010-03-23T09:49:53.145-05:002010-03-23T09:49:53.145-05:00Me too!Me too!Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-7785968678603765502010-03-22T20:06:14.379-05:002010-03-22T20:06:14.379-05:00One of my favorite works of literature. I wish eve...One of my favorite works of literature. I wish everyone read the Divine Comedy.Joshuahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05452465649409032009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-9686590914978765192010-03-22T10:03:53.075-05:002010-03-22T10:03:53.075-05:00These are good thoughts, Larry, especially #2. So,...These are good thoughts, Larry, especially #2. So, it seems pretty clear that <i>inferno</i> / <i>inverno</i> isn’t the <i>key</i> to the conceit, but it does reinforce it very nicely.Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-6138677056817837462010-03-21T12:58:27.703-05:002010-03-21T12:58:27.703-05:00Well, I can address some of this in short order.
...Well, I can address some of this in short order. <br /><br />1) There are many pre-Dantean depictions of Hell in Christianity. Among the more famous and influential are the Vision of St. Paul and Bede's reports of visions in the Historia Ecclesiastica, though those are certainly not all. I think all of them report hell as being a place of extreme heat and extreme cold. Not as detailed as Dante of course, but no philological intrigue necessary on this one.<br /><br />2) Why the lower levels are icy: simple. God is the source of heat, life, light. That which is the furthest from God and in many ways the opposite of God is then the cold, darkness--the lack of life, heat, etc. Note that even where hell is hot, it is lifeless and dark.<br /><br />Now you might object that parts of hell are warm...but not warm, downright hot, steamy, and uncomfortable. Moreover, the hot areas of hell contain the sinners whose sins are ones of "balance", that is, their sins are those of too much passion in one area or another and so perverted the things of the body. As we move into the cold areas we move from those bodily passions to cold blooded murder etc....including the ultimate sin: Satan's sin was pride, but a pride that caused him to rebel--to be the ultimate, eternal traitor--in contrast to the ever faithful Creator. Those sins in the colder regions of hell are those that begin to approach the traitors in magnitude, until of course we get to the bottom and ultimate traitor, ultimate cold, and darkness--furthest from God.<br /><br />So anyway....that's the Dante note of the week.theswainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05919025515524894537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-37506307764259906322010-03-20T04:46:08.540-05:002010-03-20T04:46:08.540-05:00thanks for your patience e your ability in transla...thanks for your patience e your ability in translation; sure you have right when you say “ciò nonostante, col concetto lettori possono trovare nuove strade attraverso i suoi molti versi poetici“ (Dante smile for this!)...just another thing about Dante’s immagination: is big and used everything he see and known in the world for what he consider (?) important to say (you can definy his immagination catholic in cultural sense): the dogma is an experience for a medieval man, is not a philosophical issue, but where it is the dogma’s hush a poet can use anything serve...(maybe you remember another one that do this way?)<br /><br />ciao. G.Giovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14922786032932386009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-33902568198456104602010-03-19T15:19:44.691-05:002010-03-19T15:19:44.691-05:00I thought Giova’s comments were so insightful, I’v...I thought Giova’s comments were so insightful, I’ve translated them into English to give others an equal opportunity to reflect on what he had to say. Omitting the introductory paragraph:<br /><br />“Certainly the first model of inspiration for Dante is Virgil (and in general the classical Latin and Greek [literature]).<br /><br />Being the man of culture that he was, [Dante] knew well the mystical [perhaps a slip for <i>mitica</i> “mythical”] literature and the romance of the period (I am thinking of the Navigatio Sancti Brendan [Voyage of Saint Brendan] and the Arthurian Cycle).<br /><br />What counts, as far as Dante’s intentions go, surely is this: when it comes to the traitors, for him the most loathsome sinners by far, he put them at the very bottom of Hell, [because] he needs to distinguish them from all others, the unrestrained [lit. “incontinent”], the violent and the deceitful.<br /><br />Betrayal is the most despicable [sin that] exists for Dante, because it is the denial of any connection that ennobles man, family, country and benefactors, that makes one prone to do [things] not for passion, but out of stinginess of feeling, out of – in a word – meanness.<br /><br />And if passion (fire) is characteristic of the unrestrained and violent, then traitors [on the other hand] are characterized by a kind of barrenness, by a coldness towards all (and therefore, ice).<br /><br />On the question of a link between winter [<i>inverno</i>] and hell [<i>inferno</i>] I wouldn’t know what to tell you — certainly it’s a fascinating hypothesis — of which Dante would be conscious, but I do not know to what extent it could be considered correct (but I repeat, this isn’t really my ambit).<br /><br />Hoping to have been clear, I have the book that will do for you (in Italian of course), called <i>The Matter and Form of the Divine Comedy: Otherworldly Worlds in Classical and Medieval Literature</i>, written by Pio Rajna. Maybe some American library specializing in Italian literature would have it; it’s a classic.”<br /><br />As it happens, the Texas A&M library system has a copy of this book, so I might be able to get it via interlibrary loan. It might be worth the effort, though it would be a challenge getting through the book — in Italian! — before I had to return it. It’s also available on <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=ATNdAAAAMAAJ" rel="nofollow">Google Books</a>, and one can even search the text, but the results are limited to nearly useless snippets.Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-64668967400454250802010-03-19T14:02:44.292-05:002010-03-19T14:02:44.292-05:00Ciao Giova. Grazie per la tua risposta. Faccio le ...Ciao Giova. Grazie per la tua risposta. Faccio le mie risposte seguenti anche in italiano (il mio meglio). Spero che suffice. :)<br /><br />Hai buoni punti, e credo che hai raggione sul soggetto di Virgilio e la tradizione medievala. Anche hai ragione mettere in contrasto i due tipi di peccati, il frigido e il focoso. (Questo è la sorta di studio accademico a ciò faccio allusione.)<br /><br />Siamo in d’accordo che non ci può sapere sicuramente se Dante aveva l’intenzione connetere le due parole, <i>inferno</i> e <i>inverno</i>. Come dici, è soltante un ipotesi. (La parola giusta non è ipotes<b>o</b>?) Ma comunque, penso ch’è possibile — forse <i>probabile</i>. Se non è vero, ciò nonostante, col concetto lettori possono trovare nuove strade attraverso i suoi molti versi poetichi. Non è così?Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-18729477221953102032010-03-19T08:15:17.417-05:002010-03-19T08:15:17.417-05:00ciao Jason come va? perdonami, ma parlo italiano, ...ciao Jason come va? perdonami, ma parlo italiano, cercando di farmi capire (se no riscrivo, ma ti chiederei pazienza), il discorso sarebbe lungo ma mi trattengo..<br /><br />sicuramente il primo modello di ispirazione per Dante è Virgilio (e in generale la classicità latina e greca)<br /><br />da uomo di cultura qual’ era, poi conosceva bene la trattatistica mistica e il romance della sua epoca (penso alla Navigatio Sancti Brendani e al ciclo arturiano)<br /><br />quello che conta, nelle intenzioni di Dante, sicuramente è questo: quando arriva tra i traditori, per lui i peccatori più odiosi tanto che li ha messi in fondo all’Inferno, ha bisogno di distinguerli da tutti gli altri, incontinenti, violenti e ingannatori<br /><br />il tradimento è cio che di più abietto esiste per Dante, perchè è il rinnegamento di qualsiasi legame che nobilita l’uomo, famiglia, patria e benefattori, che si è portati a fare non per passione, ma per calcolo, per una piccineria di sentimento, una grettezza insomma<br /><br />e se la caratteristica di incontinenti e violenti è la passione (il fuoco) i traditori sono caratterizzati da questa sorta di aridità, di freddezza nei confronti di tutto (e quindi il ghiaccio)<br /><br />sulla questione del nesso fra inverno e inferno non ti saprei dire, sicuramente è un ipotesi affascinante, di cui Dante sarà stato anche consapevole, ma non so fino a che punto possa considerarsi giusta (ma ripeto non è proprio il mio ambito)<br /><br />spero di essere stato chiaro, ho anche il libro che fa per te, in italian of course, si chiama La materia e la forma della Divina Commedia: i mondi oltraterreni nelle letterature classiche e nelle medievali e l’ha scritto Pio Rajna; forse qualche biblioteca americana specializzata in letteratura italiana potrebbe averlo, è un classico..<br /><br />bye.Giovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14922786032932386009noreply@blogger.com