tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post8239698226967851031..comments2024-03-11T16:29:13.619-05:00Comments on Lingwë - Musings of a Fish: “Old entish swords” in Beowulf and TolkienJason Fisherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-14335009758755351492008-03-24T09:27:00.000-05:002008-03-24T09:27:00.000-05:00As art affects each age and generation, the people...<I>As art affects each age and generation, the people whom it speaks to must accept it and dialogue with it according to its own cultural linguistic framework. And that always breathes a new life and power to an interpretation - however dangerous that might be.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, I agree. Well said. You see the same kind of thing in the reinterpretation of the Classical tradition during the Renaissance, and the reshaping of Latin thought through the new lens of Humanism, to name just one other example.<BR/><BR/><I>And really, we are always giving introspective consciences to our heroes, these days. I mean, speaking of Peter Jackson - look what they did to Aragorn. Of all the changes, what they did to him and Faramir is what I would like to know how Tolkien would have felt the most. Well, and a few others, but you know...</I><BR/><BR/>Agreed. I’m sure Tolkien would have been most displeased. The changes to Faramir’s character were especially grating.<BR/><BR/><I>I was surprised to hear you had not heard of Brendan Gleeson - especially with your keen interest in Harry Potter, since he is the actor who portrays Mad Eye Moody.</I><BR/><BR/>No, no, I knew the actor, I just didn’t know ahead of time that he was in <I>Beowulf</I>. I realize I didn’t communicate that very well. But yeah, I know Gleeson from the Harry Potter franchise and elsewhere (e.g., <I>The Village</I>, <I>Gangs of New York</I>, et al.).<BR/><BR/><I>I also agreed with you about Hrothgar, but I don't think it is that Hopkins did a bad job (not that you said that exactly); I think it was just a poor interpretation of his character</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, that’s what I meant too. Hopkins is a fine actor — and an amazing pianist. My wife and I met him once at a party (very briefly), and he tickled the ivories with a little Chopin.<BR/><BR/><I>I think the writer's at least showed us they knew the poem, and that they were well aware of the changes they intended to make - which in a way, makes them all the more appropriate for consideration, says I.</I><BR/><BR/>Absolutely.Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-5970307513514199122008-03-23T15:44:00.000-05:002008-03-23T15:44:00.000-05:00I do completely agree with the "movies are movies"...I do completely agree with the "movies are movies" bit. Apples and oranges and all that. There were some differences, and I think that is due as much to a differences of philosophy of the ages and cultural-linguistic frameworks, etc. I did post on my blog a review of the more philosophical aspects of the interpretation. Of course, I thought there were some anachronistic character developments, giving heroes introspective consciences and tragic familial flaws and what not, but I do not believe that to be unbecoming. As art affects each age and generation, the people whom it speaks to must accept it and dialogue with it according to its own cultural linguistic framework. And that always breathes a new life and power to an interpretation - however dangerous that might be. And really, we are always giving introspective consciences to our heroes, these days. I mean, speaking of Peter Jackson - look what they did to Aragorn. Of all the changes, what they did to him and Faramir is what I would like to know how Tolkien would have felt the most. Well, and a few others, but you know...<BR/><BR/>Visually - yes, stunning. There were many who criticized, but I think we should be careful about criticizing art for its failures to match reality; it's much like critizing van Gogh for the very same thing - rather tacky. And I like you thought they did a lot that would have been beyond reach in real life. <BR/><BR/>And very well acted. I was surprised to hear you had not heard of Brendan Gleeson - especially with your keen interest in Harry Potter, since he is the actor who portrays Mad Eye Moody. I also agreed with you about Hrothgar, but I don't think it is that Hopkins did a bad job (not that you said that exactly); I think it was just a poor interpretation of his character - the whole Hrothgar-Wealhtheow-Beowulf triangle in general was perhaps a slight bit irritating. <BR/><BR/>But I think it was incredibly clear that the writers were well-aware of the poem. The scene about the Sea Race/Battle between Beowulf and Breca was really good, and it happened closely to the way it did in the poem, I thought. I even went back and read that part, and it was pretty much all there - Unferth's accusation, Beowulf's counter, the insane story of slaying nine sea beasts and all that. I think the writer's at least showed us they knew the poem, and that they were well aware of the changes they intended to make - which in a way, makes them all the more appropriate for consideration, says I.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, I'll stop. It was very enjoyable and thought-provoking I thought. I would like to see it again, to see how I would take it a second time.<BR/><BR/>Cheers!Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13721162340739400165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-65263920630897955932008-03-20T15:15:00.000-05:002008-03-20T15:15:00.000-05:00Hi Alex,You caught me at a good time. And thanks f...Hi Alex,<BR/><BR/>You caught me at a good time. And thanks for the congrats! :)<BR/><BR/>I liked the movie — more than I expected to, in fact. I had meant to write a full post about it at some point, but I never got around to that. But in a nutshell, here’s what I thought ...<BR/><BR/>Does it deviate from the poem? Yes, of course it does, and in some very significant ways (e.g., Grendel’s mother and Beowulf’s relationship to the Dragon). But those deviations are all right with me, because I didn’t expect the film to be completely faithful to its source (just as the Peter Jackson film trilogy of <I>The Lord of the Rings</I> wasn’t completely faithful to <I>its</I> source). Movies are movies. Period.<BR/><BR/>Visually, it was quite stunning, and I thought the 3D presentation was pretty remarkable. Some shots simply couldn’t have been done live action, or at least, not easily; and they wouldn’t have packed the same punch without 3D. The Dragon sequence, for example, is just breathtaking!<BR/><BR/>I also loved the choice to have Grendel speak in Old English. The swimming contest with Breca and the giant sea-monsters was also great. And of course, Grendel’s visiting havoc upon Heorot. Exciting stuff!<BR/><BR/>Most of the casting and the performances were excellent; though of all of them, Anthony Hopkins was perhaps the most miscast, or at least the character of Hrothgar was the most mishandled. John Malkovich was a delightfully sarcastic Unferth. Brendan Gleeson (whom I’d not heard about beforehand) was a great Wiglaf. And I really enjoyed Ray Winstone, Angelina Jolie, and Crispin Glover too.<BR/><BR/>The animation was fantastic, much improved over the uber-creepy, dead-behind-the-eyes <I>Polar Express</I>. There’s still a long way to go, though. But overall, the film was highly enjoyable!<BR/><BR/>What did you think?Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-30783956722865427662008-03-20T13:45:00.000-05:002008-03-20T13:45:00.000-05:00You know, Jason, speaking about Beowulf (as old as...You know, Jason, speaking about Beowulf (as old as this post is), I've been meaning to ask you: what did you think of the most recent film interpretation? No rush, obviously, but I would love to hear what you think. <BR/><BR/>Congrats on the new house, and I hope all is well.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13721162340739400165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-41328935718944266742008-02-29T09:18:00.000-06:002008-02-29T09:18:00.000-06:00Thank you for the kind words, Oromë. Or perhaps I ...Thank you for the kind words, Oromë. Or perhaps I should say, tante grazie a Lei. I have just read the answering post you wrote on your own blog (in Italian, <A HREF="http://eldamar.it/2008/02/28/vecchie-armi-entesche-nel-beowulf-e-in-tolkien/" REL="nofollow">here</A>), and I was very gratified to find myself called a <I>linguista provetto</I>. :)Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-11579526340440349432008-02-29T03:04:00.000-06:002008-02-29T03:04:00.000-06:00Very interesting. Coming to your site while huntin...Very interesting. Coming to your site while hunting for juicy stuff is always a good bet.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-66829697416815976062008-02-27T15:41:00.000-06:002008-02-27T15:41:00.000-06:00Don’t you hate typos? And Blogger doesn’t let you ...Don’t you hate typos? And Blogger doesn’t let you edit your comments; you can only delete them. That’s frustrating!Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-54314131338662189492008-02-27T15:27:00.000-06:002008-02-27T15:27:00.000-06:00Yes, Eru. That's what I meant.Yes, Eru. That's what I meant.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13721162340739400165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-90851870151363018132008-02-27T15:09:00.000-06:002008-02-27T15:09:00.000-06:00Great post, Jason - par excellence. I greatly appr...<I>Great post, Jason - par excellence. I greatly appreciate your work: you are always thorough, well-researched and well-thought out, and I thank you.</I><BR/><BR/>Thank <I>you</I>, Alex, for your very kind words. :)<BR/><BR/><I>I especially appreciated your Beowulf quote; I find the poetry of that piece so stirring.</I><BR/><BR/>As do I. And “stirring” is just the right word, too.<BR/><BR/><I>Very interesting stuff on the Ents; I too found it interesting that Treebeard may have first been envisioned as a foe. Of course, The Return of the Shadow has a lot of surprises!</I><BR/><BR/>It’s full of them, yes. More so than some of the other volumes, but they all have their surprises.<BR/><BR/><I>But I was wondering about the chronologies. I’m not sure where in the Silmarillion it says so, but weren’t the Ents formed by Vala Yavanna to protect her plants and such, and Eru granted that they would have life and awaken in the proper time? I wonder, did this first conception of the “Giant Treebeard” give birth to what later became the Ents, and so was worked into the Silmarillion once the people was more firmly conceived?</I><BR/><BR/>The passage from <I>The Silmarillion</I> to which you are referring (in Chapter 2 of the Quenta Silmarillion, “Of Aulë and Yavanna”, in the published book) is really an editorial insertion made by Christopher Tolkien early into Quenta using material Tolkien wrote much later (at the earliest, 1958-9, several years after the publication of <I>The Lord of the Rings</I>). See “Of the Ents and the Eagles” in <I>The War of the Jewels</I> (Volume 11 in the <I>History of Middle-earth</I>).<BR/><BR/>So, yes, the Ents developed as part of <I>The Lord of the Rings</I> and were only retroactively incorporated into the “Silmarillion” writings much later. The same is true of Galadriel, for that matter.Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-25030867829979398802008-02-27T14:30:00.000-06:002008-02-27T14:30:00.000-06:00Great post, Jason - par excellence. I greatly app...Great post, Jason - par excellence. I greatly appreciate your work: you are always thorough, well-researched and well-thought out, and I thank you. I especially appreciated your Beowulf quote; I find the poetry of that piece so stirring.<BR/><BR/>Very interesting stuff on the Ents; I too found it interesting that Treebeard may have first been envisioned as a foe. Of course, The Return of the Shadow has a lot of surprises!<BR/><BR/>But I was wondering about the chronologies. I'm not sure where in the Silmarillion it says so, but weren't the Ents formed by Vala Yavanna to protect her plants and such, and Etu granted that they would have life and awaken in the proper time? I wonder, did this first conception of the "Giant Treebeard" give birth to what later became the Ents, and so was worked into the Silmarillion once the people was more firmly conceived?Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13721162340739400165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-70065767850836088622008-02-25T10:22:00.000-06:002008-02-25T10:22:00.000-06:00Andy,Thanks for the comment and feedback. Very muc...Andy,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the comment and feedback. Very much appreciated, as always.<BR/><BR/><I>Great post - is there not also a connection with Eoten/Jutes made in the work did on Finn and Hengest?</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, you’re absolutely right about <I>Finn and Hengest</I>. In the editor’s introduction, Alan Bliss writes that “[t]he main participants in the dispute were the Danes and the Frisians: but a third group, the ‘Eotens’, is referred to in lines 1072, 1088, 1141 and 1145 of <I>Beowulf</I>, and the part played by these has given rise to much discussion. [...] in spite of phonological difficulties most scholars accept that ‘Eotens’ is a proper name meaning ‘Jutes’; yet there are still some who believe that the word means ‘giants’, either literally, or metaphorically in the sense of ‘enemies’.”<BR/><BR/>Later on, Tolkien explains that he feels there is no reason to doubt that Jutes (not Giants) are intended in the fragmentary poem. He writes that “[n]o creatures are less likely to have any concern in the story than ‘trolls’, and only reluctantly and in face of conclusive evidence should we admit them.” However, that being said, Tolkien is at great pains to attempt to untangle the evident conflation (the “phonological difficulties”) of <I>eoten</I> in its earlier sense (as “giant”) with <I>eoten</I> in this later usage (as “Jute”).<BR/><BR/><I>I am in the middle of The Journal of Tolkien Studies vol 4 and plan to blog on some of the excellent articles in coming weeks.</I><BR/><BR/>It’s a very good issue. Looking forward to reading your thoughts. Also, <I>Tolkien Studies</I> 5 is just around the corner. I will have an essay appearing in that issue on the Three Rings of the Elves.Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-90137010856314950132008-02-24T14:39:00.001-06:002008-02-24T14:39:00.001-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Dr. Andrew Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16695949868240167504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-58540503675251561242008-02-24T14:39:00.000-06:002008-02-24T14:39:00.000-06:00Hey Jason Just back from the Bath Literary Festiva...Hey Jason <BR/><BR/>Just back from the Bath Literary Festival where we heard Terry Pratchett of Discworld (a man who also dabbles in trolls - think a couple of them are employed in Ankh Morpok) talk about his books and actually read from an upcoming book to be published in September called Nation. Great post - is there not also a connection with Eoten/Jutes made in the work did on Finn and Hengest? Also, I wonder how how an ent would carry a sword and boy it would take a long time for him to draw it! Great that you are feeling better -look forward to the posts - I am in the middle of The Journal of Tolkien Studies vol 4 and plan to blog on some of the excellent articles in coming weeks. <BR/><BR/>Cheers, Andy <BR/><BR/>BTW: Great Beowulf site need to explore this!Dr. Andrew Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16695949868240167504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-42867526565222287712008-02-24T11:25:00.000-06:002008-02-24T11:25:00.000-06:00Uhhhhhhhhh ... thanks? :)Uhhhhhhhhh ... thanks? :)Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-29034800429635599032008-02-24T09:50:00.000-06:002008-02-24T09:50:00.000-06:00Great post, SexyBrain! ;)Great post, SexyBrain! ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-75701755608994811282008-02-22T16:40:00.000-06:002008-02-22T16:40:00.000-06:00Hello Adanedhel. Glad you enjoyed the post. Thanks...Hello Adanedhel. Glad you enjoyed the post. Thanks for letting me know. :)<BR/><BR/><I>By the way, I knew about the connection between ents and trolls and the link to eotanisc, but I only now grasped it [...] and let me tell you, ents now feel much more familiar and 'close to home'.</I><BR/><BR/>I find that to be one of the greatest pleasures in Tolkien source study: that eureka moment when something just falls into place, rippling through one’s whole understanding of how Tolkien’s imagination worked, and the attendant increase in appreciation for the depth, beauty, and quiet erudition of his legendarium. And it’s a testament to his genius that we are still able to hold meaningful conversations about these subjects decades after his death.Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-68690123921693302722008-02-22T16:31:00.000-06:002008-02-22T16:31:00.000-06:00PJ, you just watch the sarcasm or my next comment ...PJ, you just watch the sarcasm or my next comment will be in runes. ;)Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-26691717186029954472008-02-22T16:28:00.001-06:002008-02-22T16:28:00.001-06:00Thank you for that very interesting note!By the wa...Thank you for that very interesting note!<BR/><BR/>By the way, I knew about the connection between ents and trolls and the link to eotanisc, but I only now grasped it (for the lack of a better expression) and let me tell you, ents now feel much more familiar and 'close to home'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-21339850129923879032008-02-22T16:28:00.000-06:002008-02-22T16:28:00.000-06:00Is this a private conversation between Fishes?Is this a private conversation between Fishes?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-68864197116988742962008-02-22T16:15:00.000-06:002008-02-22T16:15:00.000-06:00Glad to be back! :)Glad to be back! :)Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-65963752177054051112008-02-22T16:09:00.000-06:002008-02-22T16:09:00.000-06:00Yes, we are going to need The Wolf. It's a 30 minu...Yes, we are going to need The Wolf. It's a 30 minute drive, but he'll be here in 10! ;)<BR/><BR/>How we missed thee!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-14891319795487423302008-02-22T15:09:00.000-06:002008-02-22T15:09:00.000-06:00Thanks, Fish Wife! Sorry about your brain explodin...Thanks, Fish Wife! Sorry about your brain exploding. I hope Jimmie’s home, ’cause you know I ain’t got any other friends in 818. Are we gonna have to get Marsellus to send the Wolf? ;)Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-41851881945721098362008-02-22T14:57:00.000-06:002008-02-22T14:57:00.000-06:00My head just exploded and only about 1/4 way in. t...My head just exploded and only about 1/4 way in. too! ;)<BR/><BR/>I love yer brain though. It's sexy! :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com