tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post7629731569684991863..comments2024-03-11T16:29:13.619-05:00Comments on Lingwë - Musings of a Fish: A new collective plural?Jason Fisherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-27870374750228174572011-05-22T12:20:38.122-05:002011-05-22T12:20:38.122-05:00Wayne and Christina, thanks for adding this note.
...Wayne and Christina, thanks for adding this note.<br /><br />And Saranna, yes, that’s certainly possible. As for <i>leap</i>, this is a Germanic reduplicating strong verb which became weak in English. The OED gives <i>leaped</i> (pronounced /lipt/) and <i>leapt</i> (pronounced /lept/) as acceptable forms. The former follows the weak model, the latter the strong. There is also a valid form, <i>lept</i>, which is the past tense of a related, but distinct form, <i>lep</i>, an obsolete Scots English form of “leap”. At least, all this is according to the OED.Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-34192023884520595192011-05-22T06:12:23.149-05:002011-05-22T06:12:23.149-05:00Can it simply be that Tolkien is (a) aware of the ...Can it simply be that Tolkien is (a) aware of the rare old usage and (b) aware that it will strike his readers differently and therefore (c) playing on the tension between the two possibilities? He might have enjoyed that. <br /><br />Just to lower the tone to my level (!), Tolkien uses 'leaped' in that passage. I always think it's 'lept' (pronounced lept, spelled/spelt leapt). Are both of these acceptable or is one more 'correct' than the other? I've always wondered. And moreover, is 'leaped' pronounced 'lepped'? ThanksSarannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10875490083776087957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-62664842387317914742011-05-21T09:42:26.419-05:002011-05-21T09:42:26.419-05:00We do gloss valour in the Reader's Companion, ...We do gloss <em>valour</em> in the <em>Reader's Companion</em>, but only to say that it 'presumably . . . means "strength, brave fighting force"'. We searched the OED too, as well as the <em>English Dialect Dictionary</em> and other sources, without success.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-19050878181510349742011-05-20T15:36:08.277-05:002011-05-20T15:36:08.277-05:00No worries. We were thinking alike, it seems. I sh...No worries. We were thinking alike, it seems. I should have checked the OED too, and this <i>may</i> be the sense in which Tolkien was using the word. But I’m not totally convinced. It seems to me it might still be a nonce usage, unique to Tolkien, but informed by one or both senses from the OED.Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-57566035188340981182011-05-20T15:22:32.405-05:002011-05-20T15:22:32.405-05:00Sorry to overlap you, Jason -- I hadn't seen y...Sorry to overlap you, Jason -- I hadn't seen your response to John before adding my own further thoughts.N.E. Brigandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17601573470596905112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-87703578093559332752011-05-20T15:20:15.177-05:002011-05-20T15:20:15.177-05:00Can "valour" be used in the sense that J...Can "valour" be used in the sense that John Cowan has identified (and I'm kicking myself for not checking the OED before) without specifying a quantity? Or can it be substituted as Tolkien uses it in the OED examples? "Put them in the stocks for a great valour of hours?" Does it make a difference that Tolkien uses the indefinite article but the two OED examples use the definite article?N.E. Brigandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17601573470596905112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-30369401634596781682011-05-20T15:13:24.431-05:002011-05-20T15:13:24.431-05:00N.E. Brigand, thanks! Wayne and Christina do say a...N.E. Brigand, thanks! Wayne and Christina <i>do</i> say a little about it, but I don’t have a copy handy either. I’ll look it up tonight. Google Books gets me far enough to see that they say “Here, presumably, valour means ‘strength, brave fighting force’”, which is not what I’ve suggested here — though that sense is naturally a part of it. Nor is this what John has added to the conversation. But I can’t read beyond that point until I get home.Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-10051027304621852962011-05-20T15:09:01.996-05:002011-05-20T15:09:01.996-05:00Hi, John. I was not aware of this rare sense; than...Hi, John. I was not aware of this rare sense; thanks very much for pointing this out. I wouldn’t even have thought to look. You may well be right.<br /><br />However, with valour meaning, in this sense, “amount, quantity, […] so much or so many”, well, isn’t that still a collective noun in the sense I meant? It’s no different than Tolkien’s use of other such words (e.g., host, welter, troop, company). If this is the meaning Tolkien had in mind, then it means he didn’t coin a <i>new</i> collective noun, but rather used an existing (albeit rare) one. So I’d still be half-right. And there’s nothing to stop me talking of “a valour of knights”. ;)<br /><br />But more importantly, even if it’s an existing but rare sense, Tolkien used it quite cleverly. In the OED, sense 4, <i>valour</i> really just means <i>value</i> in a very general way; but <i>valour</i> also has a different connotation (OED, sense 1, as you also noted), on which Tolkien could be playing with the plural. That is to say, it may be that he’s deliberately summoning both senses. Notice too that the examples cited in the OED use the definite article. Tolkien’s use of the indefinite is more unusual, don’t you think?<br /><br />As for the folk of Lebennin, yes, of course, they aren’t knights. I didn’t intend to suggest otherwise.Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-33060718473975279412011-05-20T14:10:30.031-05:002011-05-20T14:10:30.031-05:00Sorry to commit a Huxley's tragedy, but I thin...Sorry to commit a <a href="http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/26216.html" rel="nofollow">Huxley's tragedy</a>, but I think Tolkien's <i>valour</i> is an instance of OED2's fourth sense:<br /><br />4. The amount, quantity, etc., <i>of</i> (so much or so many). <i>rare</i>.<br /><br />1631 B. Jonson <i>Bartholmew Fayre</i> iv. vi. 77 in <i>Wks.</i> II, I thinke wee were best put'hem in the stocks,‥for the valour of an houre, or such a thing, till his worship come.<br /><br />a1825 R. Forby <i>Vocab. E. Anglia</i> (1830) (at cited word), It might be about the valour of three hours, two miles, four acres, etc.<br /><br />Also, <i>the folk of Lebennin</i> etc. suggests to me that the Rangers were leading common people rather than knights. But I'm sure Tolkien did intend a resonance with sense 1c, the ordinary one: "the quality of mind which enables a person to face danger with boldness or firmness; courage or bravery, esp. as shown in warfare or conflict; valiancy, prowess.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-61755806538387802642011-05-20T12:29:00.351-05:002011-05-20T12:29:00.351-05:00Nice catch! Checking five fan discussions of "...Nice catch! Checking five fan discussions of "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields" (once in the Rómenna group in <a href="http://www.tolkienguide.com/modules/wiwimod/index.php?page=Romenna+9-21-86" rel="nofollow">1986</a> and four times at TheOneRing.net in <a href="http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=113277#113277" rel="nofollow">2001</a>, <a href="http://onceuponatari.com/hat/rr_archive/03-8a.htm" rel="nofollow">2003</a>, <a href="http://users.bestweb.net/~jfgm/FootersWeb/Book05.htm" rel="nofollow">2006</a>, and <a href="http://users.bestweb.net/~jfgm/FootersWeb/IV-Book05.htm" rel="nofollow">2008</a>*), I can't find any comment on this point, even when that very sentence has been quoted to illustrate other ideas.<br /><br />I don't have either Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull's <i>The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion</i> or Richard Blackwelder's <i>A Tolkien Thesaurus</i> to hand -- is there anything about this curious use of "valour" in those works?<br /><br /><br />*The fifth TORN discussion of <i>The Lord of the Rings</i> is currently underway. Volunteers are being sought <a href="http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=356423#356423" rel="nofollow">now</a> to lead discussion of chapters in Book V, and inspired by your post, I've signed up to discuss "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields" in July.N.E. Brigandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17601573470596905112noreply@blogger.com