tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post6067019829522513153..comments2024-03-11T16:29:13.619-05:00Comments on Lingwë - Musings of a Fish: WOTD: CollopsJason Fisherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-28303946818731611932011-10-03T03:16:32.688-05:002011-10-03T03:16:32.688-05:00Gratum te mihi fecisti hoc vinculo dando!Gratum te mihi fecisti hoc vinculo dando!Hans Georg Lundahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055583255516264955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-56688696332501969222011-10-01T11:40:10.035-05:002011-10-01T11:40:10.035-05:00There is ample information about what the book con...There is ample information about what the book contains in the review I wrote for <i>Mythprint</i>, which you can <a href="http://www.mythsoc.org/reviews/lewis-lost-aeneid/" rel="nofollow">read here</a>, as well as all over the Internet, really. I’m surprised you hadn’t heard about this before. But a simple Google search will turn up quite a bit of information. Another review is forthcoming in the new issue of <i>Mythlore</i>.Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-12013368719432570272011-10-01T07:59:40.685-05:002011-10-01T07:59:40.685-05:00Partial? Which songs? Does it include what I read ...Partial? Which songs? Does it include what I read back at University:<br /><br /><i>Sic fatur lacrimans, classique immittit habenas<br />Et tandem Euboicis Cumarum adlabitur undis ...</i>?Hans Georg Lundahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055583255516264955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-50949401553059069502011-09-29T09:19:19.247-05:002011-09-29T09:19:19.247-05:00Yes, Lewis made a partial translation of The Aenei...Yes, Lewis made a partial translation of <i>The Aeneid</i>, but it was only published this past summer. Many people were unaware of it, not just you. :)Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-59775132093703456892011-09-26T07:44:17.387-05:002011-09-26T07:44:17.387-05:00"... C.S. Lewis’s translation of the Aeneid.....<b>"... C.S. Lewis’s translation of the Aeneid..." ?</b><br /><br />Did he make one? Why have not I heard of it?Hans Georg Lundahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055583255516264955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-51696193531216000612011-05-06T10:10:04.827-05:002011-05-06T10:10:04.827-05:00Yes, StefanE, this is where I find myself too. The...Yes, StefanE, this is where I find myself too. The argument that has been advanced for an etymology signifying “coal-hopper” (analogous to the Swedish meaning “glede-hopper”) seems valid in its structure, but that does not automatically make it sound (i.e., actually <i>true</i>).<br /><br />Piers Plowman, as you’ve found, is the earliest attested use of the word. The poem exhibits features of the West Midland dialect of Middle English, so you’re right: the likelihood of Scandinavian influence is much less than if the poem were East Midlands or Northern.<br /><br />The earliest form, in Piers Plowman, B. vi. 287, is a plural spelled <i>coloppes</i>. But there are something like fifty surviving MSS. of the poem, in which the word is variously spelled <i>colopis</i>, <i>colloppes</i>, and <i>colhoppes</i>. Skeat asserts that <i>colhoppes</i> must be the correct form, on the strength of the gloss <i>collepe</i> = Latin <i>carbonella</i> in the <i>Promptorium Parvulorum</i> — but this glossary dates from the 1440s, while Piers Plowman is close to a century earlier. The argument, therefore, isn’t totally convincing, is it? Not to mention, the fact that <i>Prompt. Parv.</i> also glosses <i>carbonella</i> as <i>steyk</i>.<br /><br />With such a proliferation of spellings — not at all uncommon in the Middle English period — how do we know there weren’t two separate words? Or that the original sense of <i>collop</i> came under the influence of a separate Scandinavian word and was rebracketed?<br /><br />So, to answer your question — “if not from “coal-jumper’ … whence else?” — what do you think of the theory I advanced in the main post, above? That is, could <i>collop</i>, meaning a slice of meat, derive from Latin <i>scalpere</i> “to carve, cut”, by way of Anglo-Norman French (cf. French <i>escalope</i>)?<br /><br />To make this case, one thing to explain is the loss of the initial <i>s</i>, and this is not so difficult to deal with philologically. The other is to deal with the proposed etymology of Old French <i>escalope</i> as meaning “shell”, and borrowed from the Germanic, and I think I can deal with this too.Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-19176049442454729722011-05-06T08:41:23.948-05:002011-05-06T08:41:23.948-05:00Having looked around a bit for early examples of c...Having looked around a bit for early examples of collop, I am only getting less convinced that there is a connection between collop and glödhoppa. The Old Swedish root for <i>hoppa</i> (to jump) has an initial H which seems rare in the ME spellings. Surely, it would be more common in the early examples? And why would there be a loan from the Swedish at that time? From Danish or Norwegian, that I could understand, except OED lists an example from Piers Plowman, whose writer would presumably not have had a dialect affected by the Viking influence (I must admit that I have forgotten just where the dialectal border went, but Langland ought to have been raised too far to the south and west).<br /><br />But if not from "coal-jumper" ... whence else?StefanEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03029697244419895795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-19362672264422486912011-05-05T09:38:58.714-05:002011-05-05T09:38:58.714-05:00These words are in lots of older works — e.g., I f...These words are in lots of older works — e.g., I find now that Sir Walter Scott used both. But though <i>numbles</i> may be just about gone from the language, it isn’t <i>quite</i>. The very familiar phrase “humble pie” preserves it. Originally, <i>a numble pie</i>, i.e., a pie made out of a deer’s organ meats (or later, that of cows and pigs), it became <i>an umble pie</i>, and then by “restoration” of an assumed dropped aitch, <i>humble pie</i>. See Walter Skeat’s <i>Notes on English Etymology</i>, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1901, p. 200, for more details.<br /><br />This kind of story is why I love philology. :)Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-20828488464516011582011-05-05T05:35:33.638-05:002011-05-05T05:35:33.638-05:00Have just seen collops again in Dickens - his trav...Have just seen collops again in Dickens - his travels in America. At one dinner they are served 'smoking collops' though I don't believe he meant they were alight!Sarannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10875490083776087957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-12306184379861867412011-05-04T22:14:40.387-05:002011-05-04T22:14:40.387-05:00"Collops" sounds T. H. White-y but I can..."Collops" sounds T. H. White-y but I can't pin it down; but "numbles" at least is in The Ill-Made Knight.Wurmbrandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17345523517796356674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-45686545810591056362011-05-02T10:00:36.639-05:002011-05-02T10:00:36.639-05:00StefanE, thanks for your comments! I’m glad you fo...StefanE, thanks for your comments! I’m glad you found the post thought-provoking. I am still not totally convinced of the “coal-hopper” / “glede-hopper” etymology for English <i>collop</i>, are you?<br /><br />And Sue, no, probably not, but it’s fun to think so! :)Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-50900773161275399522011-05-02T06:41:40.238-05:002011-05-02T06:41:40.238-05:00I'm feeling faint! Surely there can't be ...I'm feeling faint! Surely there can't be any etymological connection between glodhoppor and clodhopper (a clumsy rustic person)? I had assumed the latter to be related to stumbling over clods of earth. This must be a coincidence of sound, right?Sarannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10875490083776087957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-91032176312187093872011-05-02T03:17:36.306-05:002011-05-02T03:17:36.306-05:00How fascinating! Kalops is a traditional (and comm...How fascinating! <i>Kalops</i> is a traditional (and common; we were often served it in school) Swedish dish and checking its etymology, I find it being a loan from <i>collops</i>. My dictionary claims it to mean "slice of meat" and notes its probable antecedent <i>col + hoppe</i>, comparing it with Old Swedish <i>aeg kolhuppad</i>, eggs fried on (hot) coals. It also notes the connection to <i>glödhoppa</i>, either bread baked on the coals or on a hot griddle (I ate little but glödhoppor when I studied in England, since there was no oven for baking any other kind of bread, and no decent bread to be found in the nearby shops), or grilled mutton. The <i>hoppa</i> (Eng. jump) part is here explained by the movement of the foodstuff on the coals. I would never have made the connection between <i>kalops</i> and <i>glödhoppor</i>, however. Thanks, Jason!StefanEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03029697244419895795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-63635420316567063102011-05-01T10:25:09.941-05:002011-05-01T10:25:09.941-05:00I’m impressed at your vocabulary! I know them now,...I’m impressed at your vocabulary! I know them <i>now</i>, and won’t forget them, but I’d never come across them before. At least, not that I remember. I could see <i>collops</i> surviving even to the present day in more rural communities, where food is not yet mass-produced or shipped in from distant continents, and where people still value home-cooking. The other word, <i>numbles</i>, is a bit too specialized though, eh?Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-2998972811562159402011-05-01T09:39:13.992-05:002011-05-01T09:39:13.992-05:00I've known both words for some time, but leavi...I've known both words for some time, but leaving aside the question of eating numble pie, I have definitely heard collops used in Devon to mean chunky slices of meat; in my lifetime. No, I can't recall who said it but I've heard it. Also I have recently passed it in Dickens, but as I am a mere two volumes away from finishing a complete reread of Dickens I am not sure I could pinoint where that was either. How unhlepful of me.Sarannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10875490083776087957noreply@blogger.com