tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post2994275498287191574..comments2024-03-11T16:29:13.619-05:00Comments on Lingwë - Musings of a Fish: Pakistan: Etymology of a topical toponymJason Fisherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-38488486120930731152009-03-11T10:06:00.000-05:002009-03-11T10:06:00.000-05:00Hi, Pamelia. For which conclusion would you like a...Hi, Pamelia. For which conclusion would you like a source, that <I>hunyak</I> was a general-use adjective, or that it was the likely source of <I>honkie</I>? You say you’ve found “conflicting ideas” on the etymology of <I>hunyak</I>? Did you mean to say, of <I>honkie</I>? I don’t think the etymology of <I>hunyak</I> is controversial.<BR/><BR/>In any case, as a next step (one of many possible next steps), have a look at the entry “Magyar”, in the <I>Dictionary of Races Or Peoples</I>, published by the United States Immigration Commission, Washington: Government Printing Office, 1911, p. 92–4.Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-56119618083124242332009-03-10T01:38:00.000-05:002009-03-10T01:38:00.000-05:00Regarding your statement, "Polak and Hunyak (the s...Regarding your statement, "Polak and Hunyak (the source of honkie, by the way) were nothing more that general adjectives for “Polish” and “Hungarian” in those respective languages." I have been diligently seeking references and resources for the etymolylogy of the work HUNYAK and have found conflicting ideas. Would you cite your resources and lead us to your conclusion? I would really appreciate it. I started to use the word on a public message board and started worrying about its political correctness. It's just a word my family used for wild and/or wilful child...Pameliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04236029159820435529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-15792933960195951192008-12-10T11:05:00.000-06:002008-12-10T11:05:00.000-06:00Hi! ferengy comes from persian farangi which means...Hi! ferengy comes from persian farangi which means of frank(french)origin or european and its arabic loan word is afranjiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-88539312948765448772007-11-30T09:15:00.000-06:002007-11-30T09:15:00.000-06:00Thanks Faheem! And ...I will try to find documenta...Thanks Faheem! And ...<BR/><BR/><I>I will try to find documentation to show that the origin is Arabic rather than Persian but it seems to be obvious as the Crusaders (Franks) came to Arab lands and not to Persia.</I><BR/><BR/>You’re right: that certainly does make good logical sense. I’m sure we’ve gotten to the bottom of it at last. :)Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-13267590816002770312007-11-29T23:38:00.000-06:002007-11-29T23:38:00.000-06:00Hi Jason,Sorry I had not seen your update. You guy...Hi Jason,<BR/>Sorry I had not seen your update. You guys did do much better. I will try to find documentation to show that the origin is Arabic rather than Persian but it seems to be obvious as the Crusaders (Franks) came to Arab lands and not to Persia.<BR/><BR/>I did mean Star Trek rather than Star Wars. My mistake.faheem hussainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11167238416036538904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-31841555822269352972007-11-27T10:28:00.000-06:002007-11-27T10:28:00.000-06:00Hi Faheem. Thanks for stopping by and leaving a gr...Hi Faheem. Thanks for stopping by and leaving a great comment.<BR/><BR/><I>Its amazing how you all of you got the etymology of farangi [...] wrong.</I><BR/><BR/>You’re right: we were getting it wrong. But perhaps you didn’t see my <A HREF="http://lingwe.blogspot.com/2007/10/two-etymological-updates.html" REL="nofollow">update</A> to this, posted about six weeks ago. There, in the post and the ensuing comments, I think we did much better, don’t you? You do say that the source is Arabic, not Persian; can you point to any documentation of this word’s origins?<BR/><BR/><I>By now ferengi refers to some people in Star Wars.</I><BR/><BR/>Star Trek, actually. Specifically, <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferengi" REL="nofollow">an alien race</A> introduced with the series, <I>Star Trek: The Next Generation</I>.Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-69021661826340512552007-11-27T07:24:00.000-06:002007-11-27T07:24:00.000-06:00Its amazing how you all of you got the etymology o...Its amazing how you all of you got the etymology of farangi (this is closer to the pronunciation), meaning foreigner in Persian, Arabic and Urdu, wrong. By now ferengi refers to some people in Star Wars. The word farangi dates back to the Crusades and comes from the word Frank who were one of the leading components of the European invaders. Farangi is just an arabisation of Frank. From Arabic this word transmigrated to Persian and Urdu.faheem hussainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11167238416036538904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-68811214049429010982007-09-06T09:24:00.000-05:002007-09-06T09:24:00.000-05:00Yikes, squire! Quibble indeed. I wrote Axis Powers...Yikes, squire! Quibble indeed. I wrote Axis Powers, but of course, I meant <I>Allied</I> Powers. I guess that “Axis of Evil” metaphor has worked its way too deep, and the word just popped out. Nobody else has corrected me, though. And judging by the comments, it’s not because nobody’s reading. :)Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-72622178679345153852007-09-05T22:48:00.000-05:002007-09-05T22:48:00.000-05:00"Later, when the actual nation was being put toget..."Later, when the actual nation was being put together by the diplomats of the Axis Powers"<BR/><BR/>I guess the British raj was off looking for some bauxite mines to invade? <BR/><BR/>But I quibble. Nice post otherwise! I didn't know about the "P-A-K" acronym. What a great comment on the Europeanization of the colonial reaction.squirehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14280609151416389163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-79111528877990232862007-08-30T09:29:00.000-05:002007-08-30T09:29:00.000-05:00An Amharic root may make a little bit more sense t...An Amharic root may make a little bit more sense than a Persian, even though the French also had colonial footholds in parts of Persian empire.<BR/><BR/>Now that we’re barking up a different tree, I looked up the Persian for <I>french</I> also, and it’s fairly close, too: فرانسوي [faránsáví]. Ah, but now, looking up the Amharic, it’s not quite so close to <I>*ferenji</I> as I would have thought from your comment. It’s much closer to the Persian, in fact: <I>färänsawi</I>, <I>färänsayña</I> [<A HREF="http://www.amharicdictionary.com/Index.aspx?word=french&type=english" REL="nofollow">source</A>]. Hmm. Perhaps what you found is some kind of argot? Or a (secondary) borrowing from English? Or from Italian, if the term is actually more recent?<BR/><BR/>In any case, an interesting find, Gary. Thanks!Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-56014661493876923522007-08-29T22:57:00.000-05:002007-08-29T22:57:00.000-05:00That's fascinating stuff -- I had no idea where "h...That's fascinating stuff -- I had no idea where "honky" came from. You think George Jefferson was a card-carrying Magyar-hatah? :)<BR/><BR/>A little more research turned up something interesting about "ferengi." <A HREF="http://www.africa-ata.org/et_harar.htm" REL="nofollow">One source</A> traces the word not to Persia but to Ethiopia, where the term is an Amharic corruption of "ferenji," or "Frenchie." Apparently the French had a heavy presence in Ethiopia from the 1880s through WWI, and that's how the term stuck, gradually expanding to mean all "whiteys" as it were. So Ferengis and Honkies are actually twin branches of the same tree. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-75960669935053932322007-08-29T13:57:00.000-05:002007-08-29T13:57:00.000-05:00Thanks, Gary. And thanks for the comment about fer...Thanks, Gary. And thanks for the comment about <I>ferengi</I>. Now that you mention it, I think I remember hearing the same thing years ago. But looking, now, I don’t see anything to corroborate it. It seems that <I>foreigner</I> is actually اجنبي [ajnabí]. :)<BR/><BR/>As to the slur (originally, non-slur), <I>Paki</I>, yeah, that’s an interesting issue. It’s also highly taboo in Canada, I’ve read. And this isn’t the only example of a word that was originally plainly descriptive, and innocent of racist connotation. Polak and Hunyak (the source of <I>honkie</I>, by the way) were nothing more that general adjectives for “Polish” and “Hungarian” in those respective languages. Ditto on the innocent origins of most of the well-known Jewish slurs.Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-13720127902437327432007-08-29T12:26:00.000-05:002007-08-29T12:26:00.000-05:00Great post, Jase. I'd often heard the P+A+K expla...Great post, Jase. I'd often heard the P+A+K explanation of the name "Pakistan," but never bothered to confirm whether or not it was true. And "kafir" reminds me of another similar term, "ferengi" (which if I recall has a Farsi root, meaning something like "foreigner") -- a strange name to call oneself *whether or not* one has dumbo ears and a love of gold-pressed latinum. :)<BR/><BR/>Speaking of Pakistanis, BTW, there's an interesting debate over whether the term "Paki" should be seen as an <A HREF="http://monkeyfist.com/articles/804" REL="nofollow"> insult/racist slur</A>. In Urdu it literally has the meaning you alluded to, of "purity" or "cleanliness," but it acquired a <A HREF="http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Paki" REL="nofollow">negative connotation</A> in postcolonial England; nonetheless, there's apparently a movement to reclaim the word, much as there is with the "n" word in the U.S., or the term "bindi" (literally, the red dot on the forehead), which was once used exclusively in a derogatory manner to refer to Indians.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com