tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post1801565450580711759..comments2024-03-11T16:29:13.619-05:00Comments on Lingwë - Musings of a Fish: "What are words for, when no one listens anymore?"Jason Fisherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-17751446278098071272011-01-20T08:49:16.735-06:002011-01-20T08:49:16.735-06:00Gary, thanks for that. I don’t have any response e...Gary, thanks for that. I don’t have any response except wide-eyed and jaw-dropped incredulity at such asinine behavior. Actually, calling this asinine is an insult to honest, hard-working donkeys. I think we need a new word for this kind of thing. How about <i>stultacular</i>? By the way, <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/williams/williams020499.htm" rel="nofollow">it seems</a> the mayor realized his error and offered to rehire the aide (who declined to resume the post of Public Advocate — irony! — but was willing to take another job).Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-11090960294704825492011-01-19T21:19:37.706-06:002011-01-19T21:19:37.706-06:00If you do order that, get some sashimi as well -- ...If you do order that, get some sashimi as well -- when it comes to sushi, there's no sense being <a href="http://adversity.net/special/niggardly.htm" rel="nofollow"> niggardly </a> about it.Gary Schmidtnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-21122886575707367292011-01-19T09:26:50.166-06:002011-01-19T09:26:50.166-06:00I find all these comments to be extremely denigrat...I find all these comments to be extremely denigrating, eh, deslaving. I shall have to remember to order Slavey Sushi next time I go to a Japanese restaurant.Andy Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01942445460732496214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-61777370610154648722011-01-18T09:20:48.499-06:002011-01-18T09:20:48.499-06:00I cannot believe that they are actually going to w...I cannot believe that they are actually going to white wash Mark Twain's book. I am epically saddened by this. This book is the perfect time for teachers to bring up the discussion about racial epithets and why they are so damaging to people of different races or creeds. <br /><br />It does us no good to hide our heads in the sand. Slavery and the racism that created it and was perpetuated by it is a fact of our history. We are trying to white-wash a dark period of our history, but when we do things like that, we are allowing the possibility of the perpetuation of the exact thing we are trying to stop. <br /><br />Mark Twain was nothing if not empathetic to the plight of African-Americans in the South. His whole book is to show how this "poor n______" was a better parent to Huck than his own white father. At least that it what I got from the parts I read in high school. I never finished the book, because I didn't enjoy it. And even though I loathe the "n" word, having been called it only once (and once was more than enough), I would still never be so arrogant as to think that changing the word choice of one of America's greatest novelists is the right thing to do.Alicia Diaznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-34632443795455744552011-01-17T16:23:31.140-06:002011-01-17T16:23:31.140-06:00Thanks for the comment about Orwell, David. His th...Thanks for the comment about Orwell, David. His thoughts on language and the abuses to which it can be bent are relevant as well. And I agree that we should keep in mind the legal versus moral and aesthetic issues. For good and for ill (but mostly for good), Twain’s novel has gone into the public domain. I prefer that copyrights should expire eventually, even with the unfortunate side effect of zombie adaptations. :)Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-48685332077154032502011-01-17T15:15:13.516-06:002011-01-17T15:15:13.516-06:001) I was going to ask what John Cowan asked, about...1) I was going to ask what John Cowan asked, about what's being done with the phrase <i>free nigger.</i><br /><br />2) Running off what Kate said: If <i>injun</i> is a dialectical variation of <i>Indian</i>, <i>nigger</i> is no less a dialectical variation of <i>Negro</i>, at least in origin, though the connotations may be stronger.<br /><br />3) It is true, as John Cowan also said, that allowing children to learn epithets without clearly indicating how toxic they are3 may result in inadvertent use. But, following what you were saying about <i>the N-word</i>, if we consider things so taboo we don't even teach what the taboos are, we run the even greater risk of the taboos being broken through ignorance, or of children imagining that the taboo means something else entirely. George Orwell has some interesting comments regarding his childhood bafflement over vague warnings against (what he didn't realize at the time referred to) masturbation.<br /><br />4) Lastly, I hope we will always clearly distinguish between the legal question of what people have the right to do to texts in the public domain, versus the moral and aesthetic questions of whether we think they ought to do it.David Bratmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08090662884600828582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-44368494951741999942011-01-17T10:58:44.963-06:002011-01-17T10:58:44.963-06:00Really good points, Jeff, thanks! I don’t even kno...Really good points, Jeff, thanks! I don’t even know where to begin here, so I’ll just leave your indictment of the American education system to speak for itself.Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-47869671625895911012011-01-16T21:48:33.851-06:002011-01-16T21:48:33.851-06:00Jason, I think your "kicking the can" co...Jason, I think your "kicking the can" comment gets at something that's been missing from much of the discussion of this new edition of <i>Huck Finn:</i> how it's a weird attempt to stall dealing with the issue, which I think is capitulation to a bureaucratic mindset.<br /><br />The novel makes some administrators, teachers, students, and parents uncomfortable, but by common assent, it’s an essential part of the curriculum, so few people are brave enough or clever enough to craft an argument for leaving it out or postponing students’ exposure to it. Therefore, since they don’t like the novel as it’s written, they ask a publisher for a watered-down version, simply so they can check off the box that says “taught <i>Huck Finn,”</i> even though they really didn't.<br /><br />I live near a cathedral, and I see this sort of thing often. A bus full of schoolkids pulls up. They have an emotional reaction to a cool, neo-gothic building. They hit the gift shop. As a class, they look for the gargoyle shaped like Darth Vader. They leave. No discussion of architectural history, religion in America--nothing that engages their brains or expands their understanding of the world. I stand there and think, "Why didn't that teacher just save herself the time and trouble and simply show her kids a DVD of <i>The Empire Strikes Back</i>?"<br /><br />I feel like we're seeing lots of this in American education these days: hoop-jumping and box-checking, with many teachers and administrators (and parents!) showing little understanding of what these books, lessons, field trips, etc., are even supposed to <i>teach.</i>Jeffhttp://www.quidplura.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-47443101311756460792011-01-16T14:16:54.034-06:002011-01-16T14:16:54.034-06:00Allison, Kate, Mulberry — thank you all for the gr...Allison, Kate, Mulberry — thank you all for the great comments. And Kate, you probably know that a lot of classical sculptures have indeed been vandalized to cover up their nudity. In far too many cases, sex organs have been chiseled off, or plastered over. Some sculptures have been destroyed outright. A terrible loss.<br /><br />Julian, thanks for your comments as well. The substitution of <i>critter</i> for <i>nigger</i> makes me roll my eyes. Of course, it has to be done on our Puritanical television networks, but <br /><i>critter</i> could just as easily have been the offensive word, in which case <i>nigger</i> might have been the word substituted. Just words.<br /><br />I always find it funny when a kid in high school is sent to the principal’s office for saying “fucking”, but <i>not</i> for saying “freaking”, “frigging”, “frakking”, or something similar. The intended meaning is <i>precisely</i> the same, but one set of phonemes is acceptable and another is not. Intent is irrelevant to punishment. Absurd!<br /><br />If the word is so offensive, why shouldn’t the contries Nigeria and Niger change their names? Oh, but the latter is “safe” because it’s pronounced /ˈnaɪdʒər/ or /niˈʒɛər/. But both come from the Latin <i>niger</i>, meaning “black”, exactly as the English slur, <i>nigger</i>.Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-61634918143186317212011-01-15T23:11:24.578-06:002011-01-15T23:11:24.578-06:00I find it hilarious that the word "slave"...I find it hilarious that the word "slave" is the preference, if nothing else. If anyone alive now had been a slave back then, the word would surely cause a mental cringe as well as horrific memories of what it's like to be a slave. In contrast, nigger is mostly a lazy offshoot of "negro," with which we could into the world of western culture linguistics all day long. It doesn't really "mean" anything. No one is actually a nigger, but many people were actually slaves. It's almost like referring to a Jewish person by his Auschwitz number instead of calling him a kike. Kike doesn't really mean anything. That number certainly does. <br /><br />Linguistic arguments aside, art is not the place to throw around your PC paint brush where you like. I would rather the Venus de Milo be crushed into dust completely than see someone use a Sharpie to put a bikini top on her because they're offended by naked breasts. In essence - if you don't like it, stop teaching it altogether before destroying it. Just leave it alone. Leave it to parents to either let their children read it, encourage them to read it, or not to. If Mom wants to take white out to every page before she turns it over to Junior, that's her business. It is, however, NEVER the business of academia to not only allow the destruction of art, but to promote it, and teach it.Katehttp://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-77018692327860462042011-01-15T16:20:10.926-06:002011-01-15T16:20:10.926-06:00I would suggest that the correct action would be t...I would suggest that the correct action would be to include a prefaratory note explaining that the word "nigger" appeared in the original text and that it is currently considered to be offensive, and then leave it in. <br /><br />Some time ago, the television program _Cold Case_, which is fictional, had an episode set in the south around 1960. They chose to use the word "critter" as a substitute for "nigger" in dialogue, which I thought was an interesting and appropriate choice. In this case, of course, we are dealing with fiction written in the period during which the word "nigger" was recognized as offensive. Viewers of a certain age certainly knew what was going on, the two words have a similar rhythm, so it seemed to work well in the dialogue.Julian Landernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-4397618775974676322011-01-15T15:55:38.306-06:002011-01-15T15:55:38.306-06:00Good read, Jason. I could write my own blog about ...Good read, Jason. I could write my own blog about how pissed it makes me. But the short version is, I despise that anyone would try to edit/destroy the original texts. Whiny, sensitive politically correct ass clowns make me insane.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05493880104046702999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-86887252766770965832011-01-15T14:58:12.425-06:002011-01-15T14:58:12.425-06:00Thanks for this, Jason; I find it eases my irritat...Thanks for this, Jason; I find it eases my irritation with the current top-two news stories (this, and the Tucson shooting). I especially liked your counterposing of coddling versus confronting prejudice; while the whole was excellent, I concur with that insight as fundamental to the questions at hand.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15451194526084268439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-4048660781985746182011-01-15T05:31:47.097-06:002011-01-15T05:31:47.097-06:00Lagomorph, thanks for the info about the US showin...Lagomorph, thanks for the info about the US showings of "Dam Busters". I take it this was on a not-free-to-air channel, e.g. cable or satellite or similar - this may be the same in UK too, but we personally live in the electronic stone age with only terrestrial analogue reception... we need to change.<br /><br />Another example of retrospective denunciation of the use of taboo words: Dorothy L. Sayeers is frequently pilloried as a racist because in her fiction she uses the word "nigger". In context, however, it looks rather different The main instance quoted is in "Unnatural Death" (1927), where a minor character refers to a black clergyman as "a dirty filthy nigger". Wimsey's comment in response: <br />"Nigger", to a Miss Timmins, may mean anything from a high-caste Brahmin to Sambo and Rastus at the Coliseum - it may even, at a pinch, be an Argentine or an Esquimaux." <br />The said clergyman, who is a potential murder suspect, is found at an East London Mission, and the detectives brace themselves to confront the villain:<br />"The door, however, was opened to admit an elderly West Indian, of so humble and inoffensive an appearance that the hearts of the two detectives sank into their boots. Anything less murderous could scarcely be imagined, as he stood blinking nervously at them from behind a pair of steel-rimmed spectacles ...."<br /><br />Now this does not strike me as the language of the KKK! But then I have polluted my mind by actaually reading the book, which doubtless disqualifies me from impartial judgement.David Doughannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-57160424271709035352011-01-14T17:43:19.768-06:002011-01-14T17:43:19.768-06:00Funny thing about this is, I never even knew the w...Funny thing about this is, I never even knew the word was taboo (to Americans) until a couple of years ago. I mean, I knew it was horrible to call somebody a n- but living where I do, it's not something that even gets mentioned. I had seriously read the word in books my whole life and never given it a 2nd thought. Kids only make an issue if adults do. I'm pretty sure countless kids over the last century have read those books and never thought anything of it. Changing it will not help anyone in my opinion. I think that everyone has the right to know that back a hundred years ago, "white" people refered to "black" people that way. If as a child, you have no living examples of the word being used as it was, then how are you expected to know why on earth it is such a bad word! I can't believe you've never seen Dambusters Jason, it's classic film. Even I've seen it.Lillyput90noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-19850020557205732772011-01-14T16:44:35.764-06:002011-01-14T16:44:35.764-06:00Yes, N.E. Brigand, all of which goes to my point t...Yes, N.E. Brigand, all of which goes to my point that words are just words. They may be put to all sorts of uses, good and bad, and fashions and tolerance will ebb and flow over time. Why, I know people who avoid the word <i>niggard</i> like a landmine, simply because it sounds like the racial slur — even though its etymology is totally unrelated.Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-26251104839529506312011-01-14T16:09:49.646-06:002011-01-14T16:09:49.646-06:00Because Peter Jackson was developing a remake of T...Because Peter Jackson was developing a remake of <i>The Dam Busters</i>, there has been some talk about the epithet on Tolkien forums, as <a href="http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=188794#188794" rel="nofollow">here</a>.<br /><br />(That link took longer to find than I expected, because entering the obvious term into the forum's search function brought up hundreds of responses for "snigger".)<br /><br />Your reference to 19th century bowdlerization of "damned" reminded me of the 1934 British film of <i>The Scarlet Pimpernel</i>, in which, when ladies repeat the rhyme about the hero, they point to the floor rather than say "hell", but have no problem uttering "damned elusive pimpernel".N.E. Brigandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17601573470596905112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-54829739422563087702011-01-14T14:31:06.580-06:002011-01-14T14:31:06.580-06:00John, thanks for letting me know about the zombie ...John, thanks for letting me know about the zombie version of <i>Huck Finn</i> — ugh. Some people like these books, but I feel they’re vacuous and opportunist. I don’t believe copyright should last forever, but these books certainly seem like an abuse of the freedom of the public domain.<br /><br />Thanks even more for sharing your personal story. I’m white too. A bit younger than you; I wasn’t yet conceived during most of the civil rights movement of the 1960s. My wife and I have a high school friend, as white as a lily, who married a very dark-skinned black man. He’s a lieutenant commander in the Air Force, and a few years ago, they were stationed at a base in Alabama, where interracial marriage had only just become legal! Though it had long since ceased to be enforceable, interracial marriage was still <i>illegal</i> in Alabama until the end of 2000. The looks they used to get. Seriously.<br /><br />I don’t know how I feel about all of this either, except to say that (a) Twain was part of the solution, not the problem, and (b) although they do have power, words are only words — until they are suborned to harm others. I think we should be able to discuss the word by using the word, and I think the force of Twain’s original language should be allowed to stand. It is a powerful tonic when allowed to do its work.<br /><br />By the way, the irony is not lost on me that in some of Twain’s writings, words that are seen as rather innocuous today, like <i>damned</i>, had to be written <i>d—</i> in those days.<br /><br />By the way, I don’t know what Gribben has done about <i>free nigger</i>. Excellent question! You have zeroed in on another problem with wholesale substitutions of this kind: words are never totally equivalent.<br /><br />Lagomorph and Anon., thanks for that. I have never heard of this film, but that’s very interesting. And thanks for your comment as well, Cat. It’s very nice to hear from open-minded people.Jason Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05809154870762268253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-53880868908933400162011-01-14T14:07:09.290-06:002011-01-14T14:07:09.290-06:00There actually is a zombie version: The Adventure...There actually is a zombie version: <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Adventures-Huckleberry-Finn-Zombie-Jim/dp/1897217978" rel="nofollow"><i>The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn and Zombie Jim</i></a>. In this tale, a new mutant disease, a hybrid of TB (there's another euphemism for you!) and smallpox, kills off its victims, who shortly return to life as shambling you-know-whats. In an attempt to keep society going, President Buchanan freed all the slaves before Huck was born, and the n-word has been replaced throughout society with the b-word: <i>bagger</i> (etymology uncertain, but perhaps in reference to the burlap bag into which victims are placed so they can be destroyed if they are uncontrollable). But the disease mutates again and again, and the baggers change their temperaments ... and things go horribly worrrrng ....<br /><br />I don't know how I feel about all this. I'm white. When I was five, I referred to a little girl in my kindergarten as a nigger, and she burst into tears and howls. The principal brought my parents in to school, and I told them truthfully that I had read the word in <i>Tom Sawyer</i>, and had no idea that it was insulting. Of course, most five-year-olds can't read, never mind read Twain, but I could and did. Since I had acted in total ignorance, I wasn't punished, but I'm sure Gwen has a very different story.<br /><br />Is that exact situation likely to recur? Not very. Is it worth producing this edition if it saves one white kid from a horrible social gaffe, and one black kid from a horrible experience? Probably.<br /><br />Now I'm fifty-two, and my two-year-old grandson is black. I'll never use the word again, but when he grows older, he quite possibly will. I don't know how I feel about that either.<br /><br />A philogical point: What's being done with the two instances of <i>free nigger</i> in the text? <i>Free slave</i> would be self-contradictory.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-89586023214558521502011-01-14T13:47:43.690-06:002011-01-14T13:47:43.690-06:00Excellent post, Jase!Excellent post, Jase!The Cat Bastethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08766507614966971022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-30998065416634720812011-01-14T13:13:49.852-06:002011-01-14T13:13:49.852-06:00The Dam Busters however is not edited when shown i...The Dam Busters however is not edited when shown in the US.. I saw it not too long ago on Turner Classic movies and nearly spit my drink when I heard them refer to the dog.Lagomorph Rexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06385231158384929598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9050528436539921312.post-81076271236746928882011-01-14T12:52:14.622-06:002011-01-14T12:52:14.622-06:00In the 1950s there was a gung-ho British war film ...In the 1950s there was a gung-ho British war film called "The Dam Busters", about an RAF raid on German dams. A small part of the story involved the black Labrador belonging to the leader of the raid, who was finally killed in a road accident shortly beofre the raid. The black dog's name was ... yes, Nigger. The film is frequently repeated on UK TV. However,some time ago the dog's name was edited out - and more recently the dog has been edited out altogether.<br /><br />So it's not just in the USA.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com